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Thread: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

  1. #136
    Member improbus's Avatar
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    What is Braxton Miller currently getting for playing in front of 100,000 people? First, the "scholarship" is a negligible cost for the school. The "benefits" than the players get are simply the cost of doing business and keeping the cartel running. You can't count that as part of their compensation. It would be like claiming that the Mail Truck and uniform are part of the mail man's compensation. So, he isn't exactly getting a lot for all of that exposure right now.

    Also, don't credit the university for giving the players exposure. The professional leagues would find a way to find the talent. The sports that don't filter through the college system have no problem identifying talent.

    Finally, I don't understand the argument that paying the players will create some sort of competitive imbalance. The top ten grossing programs are perennial top 10 football programs already.
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  4. #137
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Without UCLA who is Ed O'Bannon? Honest question, if he goes to another California state school, say UCSD, what does he become?
    Without UCLA he would have gone to another high profile school. So that point is irrelevant.

    See I view it much differently than you do. If the NFL and NBA thought it was in their best financial sense to create a minor league system they would. I also think the student athletes need the schools much more. Where else could Braxton Miller go and play in front of 100,000 people every fall Saturday. OSU will still sell out the stadium with or without him.
    As things are right now, it isn't in their best interest to do so. But if all of a sudden colleges drop athletics, you can bet your entire financial nest egg that the NFL and NBA are going to set up a minor league system. That is the point. If this case "fixes" the system, which leads to colleges just saying "screw athletics" and not paying players what they are worth (and it is a whole lot more than their scholarship) and they all just drop athletics, the pro leagues aren't going to just stop existing without colleges having athletes to choose from. They will create a minor league system, draft guys out of high school, send them to the minors and go from there.

    What is Johnny Manziel without Texas A&M? He was a Texas school boy legend but until a performance against Alabama on national TV he was pretty much to people outside of Texas or the SEC. If he is playing for a minor league NFL team based in El Paso does anyone care? Does anyone notice if the El Paso Earthquakes beat the Spokane Thunders?
    If he is playing for an NFL minor league team in El Paso, no one cares today. Just like no one cared that Ken Griffey Jr was playing in Bellingham, Washington in 1988. But people found out real quick who he was. Just like they would with Manziel in an NFL having a minor league system.

    I agree with Boston Red, be careful not to slaughter that golden goose. There are 125 FBS schools with approximately 85 scholarships each bringing to the total of FBS players to 10,625. 254 players were drafted this past season in the NFL draft. So roughly 2.3% of collegiate football players are drafted which leaves 97.7% doing something other than playing football. 97.7% of college football players who get a full ride though college and the exposure playing on TV in front of the nation. You think the NFL wants to create a minor league system where only 2% make it to the NFL? You think the NFL wants to take that financial risk?
    No, they don't want to. And they won't unless they have to. Right now, colleges are raking in billions on the backs of the athletes. The NFL and NBA are saving what, tens or hundreds of millions because college is making billions on those "students".

  5. #138
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    The biggest misnomer in college athletics is the term "amateurism". The players are getting compensated for their athletic skill, unlike a true amateur. So, their compensation should work like all other companies with payments of real money. Instead, the universities practice wage fixing and set a uniform wage that applies to both the Heisman winner and to the 75 guy on indiana's football team. What is right about that?
    Variatio delectat - Cicero

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Not only do the schools not pay the players adequately, but they do not let the players have jobs to supplement the inadequate funds they currently receive. No other college students have such restrictions. It is ludicrous and immoral that they do this and we all let them get away with it and even applaud them for it.
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    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Without UCLA he would have gone to another high profile school. So that point is irrelevant.
    It kinda is the point. What is Ed O'Bannon without the high level exposure that high profile schools give him? Whether it is UCLA or Duke or UNC or Kentucky, etc. they all give these top level players the platform to perform upon. Without that platform what is Ed O'Bannon? Maybe he gets noticed and drafted or signed to a NBADL team, maybe he doesn't.


    As things are right now, it isn't in their best interest to do so. But if all of a sudden colleges drop athletics, you can bet your entire financial nest egg that the NFL and NBA are going to set up a minor league system. That is the point. If this case "fixes" the system, which leads to colleges just saying "screw athletics" and not paying players what they are worth (and it is a whole lot more than their scholarship) and they all just drop athletics, the pro leagues aren't going to just stop existing without colleges having athletes to choose from. They will create a minor league system, draft guys out of high school, send them to the minors and go from there.
    If the NFL thought they could make money off a minor league system they would. They NFL is doing everything in their power to market themselves and make more money. When they realized something is a loser they pull out (see NFL Europe). The NFL, NBA and NCAA have a good relationship because they realize its in their best interest to keep everyone happy. If college sports were kneecapped by the courts a minor league system would be very difficult to start. Most college fans root for a school not a given player.


    If he is playing for an NFL minor league team in El Paso, no one cares today. Just like no one cared that Ken Griffey Jr was playing in Bellingham, Washington in 1988. But people found out real quick who he was. Just like they would with Manziel in an NFL having a minor league system.


    No, they don't want to. And they won't unless they have to. Right now, colleges are raking in billions on the backs of the athletes. The NFL and NBA are saving what, tens or hundreds of millions because college is making billions on those "students".
    Sure no one would know who Manziel would be if he played in El Paso. And the reality is, if you take the same stats turning college players to pros, no one would ever know of the 97% of the people making up the minor league system.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    What muddies the waters in this particular discussion is that the kids are paid with something that is almost universally applauded, education. It creates an artificial sense of worth because we tend to think of education as an extremely valuable commodity (and I should know, I'm a high school teacher).
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by improbus View Post
    What muddies the waters in this particular discussion is that the kids are paid with something that is almost universally applauded, education. It creates an artificial sense of worth because we tend to think of education as an extremely valuable commodity (and I should know, I'm a high school teacher).
    It's become much more valuable of late, too. Some of the kids don't want this particular currency, though.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Of course you aren't excited about it. You benefit from how things currently work.
    Well yeah. Why else do I care about any of this? I mean, the universities are clearly getting the better end of this deal, but I can't really fathom feeling sorry for the players, either. So IMO there's no real reason for me to personally care about this issue other than to be concerned about my own self interest as a fan of college sports.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    So Doug, you want colleges to start dropping athletics so the 1% of athletes that they're "taking advantage of" that will later be pros get their "fair deal", and screw over the rest of the players who will only have their college athletics career no longer available to them?
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
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    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

  14. #145
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    So Doug, you want colleges to start dropping athletics so the 1% of athletes that they're "taking advantage of" that will later be pros get their "fair deal", and screw over the rest of the players who will only have their college athletics career no longer available to them?
    I'm not Doug, but I will take a swing at this one and I'm sure Doug will too. I don't understand why everyone thinks that paying the football and basketball players will collapse all of college athletics. How about this for a solution? Take the current amount of money each team spends on their football program and put all of that money in a hat. Tell teams that they can spend that money any way they want, including on players. I think 2 million out of Urban Meyers
    Salary would go a long way towards rectifying this problem. Perhaps schools may stop building those super lavish training facilities and instead pay the kids. Perhaps they will stop paying defensive coordinators half a million dollars and give that money to the kids concussions themselves for it. Or you could make the number a percentage of each schools athletic budget. You don't have to kill lacrosse to pay players, you just have to distribute the money correctly.
    Last edited by improbus; 07-22-2013 at 04:19 PM.
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    It kinda is the point. What is Ed O'Bannon without the high level exposure that high profile schools give him? Whether it is UCLA or Duke or UNC or Kentucky, etc. they all give these top level players the platform to perform upon. Without that platform what is Ed O'Bannon? Maybe he gets noticed and drafted or signed to a NBADL team, maybe he doesn't.
    Funny, though, how that platform and exposure provided by the high-profile schools exists in exactly the same places where the best players are. What's UCLA's profile if not for all the greats who played there? It cuts both ways.

    And it's safe to say O'Bannon, specifically, would have been fine. He was considered by many to be the best player in his high-school class, and would have been snapped up through any conceivable means by which the NBA procured talent. I mean, in this age of one-and-dones, it's not like the pro scouts don't know who those guys are. Did Andrew Wiggins need to go to Kansas or Kentucky or UNC to be on the NBA's radar? Of course not. The idea that players need to go to certain schools to have a pro future is silly. NBA scouts are digging up first-rounders from Europe. They'll find a real star that happens to be at UCSD. Or Indiana State, or Davidson, or Navy. Or, if the one and done rule gets abolished, they'll start taking them straight out of high school again.
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by improbus View Post
    I'm not Doug, but I will take a swing at this one and I'm sure Doug will too. I don't understand why everyone thinks that paying the football and basketball players will collapse all of college athletics. How about this for a solution? Take the current amount of money each team spends on their football program and put all of that money in a hat. Tell teams that they can spend that money any way they want, including on players. I think 2 million out of Urban Meyers
    Salary would go a long way towards rectifying this problem. Perhaps schools may stop building those super lavish training facilities and instead pay the kids. Perhaps they will stop paying defensive coordinators half a million dollars and give that money to the kids concussions themselves for it. Or you could make the number a percentage of each schools athletic budget. You don't have to kill lacrosse to pay players, you just have to distribute the money correctly.
    Title IX.

  18. #148
    Member improbus's Avatar
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Title IX.
    That would be a challenge. Title IX has not seen Revenue and non Revenue sports differently in its interpretation, just gender.
    Variatio delectat - Cicero

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    The University of Texas PROFITS nearly $70M from their football program every year. Ohio State is at nearly $50M a year.

    Schools need to drop sports that aren't able to support themselves through either donations, ticket sales or marketing deals, just like everything else. Would the school still have a major offered at their school that was losing money hand over fist? Of course they wouldn't. But they have to do so in sports because Sally needs to be allowed to play field hockey or because Jim needs to be able to play soccer at a big loss for the school each year. Stop. Doing. That.

    If you can't support the cost of your sport, cut it. Title IX is a joke. Get rid of it.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The University of Texas PROFITS nearly $70M from their football program every year. Ohio State is at nearly $50M a year.

    Schools need to drop sports that aren't able to support themselves through either donations, ticket sales or marketing deals, just like everything else. Would the school still have a major offered at their school that was losing money hand over fist? Of course they wouldn't. But they have to do so in sports because Sally needs to be allowed to play field hockey or because Jim needs to be able to play soccer at a big loss for the school each year. Stop. Doing. That.

    If you can't support the cost of your sport, cut it. Title IX is a joke. Get rid of it.
    OK, so yes to my question then. You want to make the system "fair" for literally a microscopic portion of student athletes and then tell all the rest of them "suck it, not my problem."

    That's the biggest load of BS I've ever heard in my life.

    Oh my god, Andrew Wiggins has to go to college for a year before he makes more money than he could possibly spend in his life in the NBA. What a tragedy. Cry me a freaking river.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

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