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Thread: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

  1. #226
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    I wonder what percentage of the money the football factories raise comes from alumni/parents of alumni/others with a direct connection to the university.

    Your "sidewalk fans" will watch on TV, buy gear, and maybe even donate to the boosters so they can buy season tickets. But will they pony up the huge bucks it takes to build a stadium, pay a coaching staffs salary or endow 85 football scholarships?
    When all is said and done more is said than done.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    Dining halls aren't open 24/7.
    No, but just about every school now uses a magnetic strip food card that is accepted everywhere off campus. Just about every fast food joint, grocery store, and convenience store in Akron accepts the University of Akron "Zip Card" for payment. Every week some business in my city of Stow puts up a sign saying "Now accepting the Kent State 'Flash Card.'" Even some of the nicer restaurants are starting to accept it. It's been the trend for well over a decade and I'm sure Foster had something similar when he was in school, since he isn't that far from his college days.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    If someone wanted to start a semi-pro feeder system up in Columbus it would fail misreably.
    Yes, of course, because it would compete with Ohio State and NCAA football. In the absence of college football it would fare differently.

    The XFL or World League or NFL Europe or whatever isn't a comp, because it's not the same thing. It's not 18-22 year old kids out of high school being groomed, and it's not in a world without college football.
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    No, but just about every school now uses a magnetic strip food card that is accepted everywhere off campus. Just about every fast food joint, grocery store, and convenience store in Akron accepts the University of Akron "Zip Card" for payment. Every week some business in my city of Stow puts up a sign saying "Now accepting the Kent State 'Flash Card.'" Even some of the nicer restaurants are starting to accept it. It's been the trend for well over a decade and I'm sure Foster had something similar when he was in school, since he isn't that far from his college days.
    Right, Ohio State has BuckIDs, or did when I was in school, same deal.

    I don't know the specifics and you may be right. When I was a student I do know that it wasn't like I could use a meal from my meal plan at Adriatico's - but I could purchase food there from money loaded onto the card. I have no idea on the ins and outs of what is a meal on a meal plan for athletes, how much money they get to live on or whatever, but it's just not really hard for me to believe that there are times when they run out of money and get hungry.
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
    --Oscar Wilde

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    Waitin til next year bucksfan2's Avatar
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by improbus View Post
    Wait, so you think all those SEC fans all attended those schools? I live in Columbus and there are a TON of fans who didn't go to the school. It plays the role of a professional team here, as does Kentucky Basketball, etc...

    My question is this. If everything was the same about college sports, except that the players were cut in on the money that the school received in addition to their scholarship, would anyone stop watching? Is amateurism the line of demarcation where we would quit watching college football if the players got payed? I would venture no as a guess. We didn't quit watching the Olympics, we wouldn't quit watching college football.
    Let me rephrase what I was trying to say. College football is a different animal than the NFL. It is rooted in tradition regardless of where the fans went to school. The big time college football schools are located in "secondary" towns. Cities that don't have a NFL team. Cities that are rooted in college football. Cities that would be the prime locations if they tried to put in a minor football league.

    It is my contention that a minor football league would fail and fail miserable. Daren Rovell tweeted (like him or not) that the average compensation package of a scholarship athlete is around $80K a year. So if your going to create a league where your paying players and are going to compete against the likes of OSU in or outside of Columbus your looking at roughly $5M in salaries. You think any major network is going to pick up a minor football league team and broadcast them alongside Ohio State? Where is the money going to come from?

    Arian Foster was compensated. Arian Foster was compensated at a level that he would have a difficult time getting elsewhere at the age of 18. You think people went to Neyland stadium to see Foster play? I want to know what happened to Foster's room and board money? I wanted to know why he needed taco's because his money went to rent when the university gave him a pretty nice stipend.

  8. #231
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by improbus View Post
    My question is this. If everything was the same about college sports, except that the players were cut in on the money that the school received in addition to their scholarship, would anyone stop watching? Is amateurism the line of demarcation where we would quit watching college football if the players got payed? I would venture no as a guess. We didn't quit watching the Olympics, we wouldn't quit watching college football.
    Strict amateurism? No. But I think it would be damaged significantly if either of two things happened:

    1) The "college" was cleaved from "college football." As others have mentioned, there is a great deal of institutional support and nostalgic connections involved in propping up the whole thing, and that would be lost if the players weren't real students anymore.

    2) The players became true professionals. I really don't think that many people mind if the players get cut in on the deal, but they're familiar enough with pro sports to know what comes with it, and it's not something they wish to introduce to the college game.

    For starters, if players get enough money that they become professionals as far as the IRS is concerned -- which would happen as soon as it crosses the scholarship line, i.e. more than can be reasonably claimed to be about covering the cost of attending college -- that makes them employees. Which makes the universities employers. Which means the universities would be instantly violating federal antitrust law by colluding and fixing how much money the players get, among a bunch of other things. Which would result in collective bargaining and labor agreements and the like. Who wants that?

    If one side has irrational fantasies about the amateur ideal being tenable (or even morally defensible) in this day and age of big-money college football, I think the other side is equally fantasizing that players can be paid but everything else they love about the game will stay the same. Maybe that's just how it has to be; maybe college football as we've known it and the sums of money involved today are just fundamentally incompatible.
    Not all who wander are lost

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Less than 10% of Bama fans even finished high school....
    I guess my family's in the top 10% then. My Dad graduated from there in 4 yrs. Bart Starr was the QB at the time. Jim Nabors was in the choir

  11. #233
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Let me rephrase what I was trying to say. College football is a different animal than the NFL. It is rooted in tradition regardless of where the fans went to school. The big time college football schools are located in "secondary" towns. Cities that don't have a NFL team. Cities that are rooted in college football. Cities that would be the prime locations if they tried to put in a minor football league.

    It is my contention that a minor football league would fail and fail miserable. Daren Rovell tweeted (like him or not) that the average compensation package of a scholarship athlete is around $80K a year. So if your going to create a league where your paying players and are going to compete against the likes of OSU in or outside of Columbus your looking at roughly $5M in salaries. You think any major network is going to pick up a minor football league team and broadcast them alongside Ohio State? Where is the money going to come from?

    Arian Foster was compensated. Arian Foster was compensated at a level that he would have a difficult time getting elsewhere at the age of 18. You think people went to Neyland stadium to see Foster play? I want to know what happened to Foster's room and board money? I wanted to know why he needed taco's because his money went to rent when the university gave him a pretty nice stipend.
    I agree 100% that a minor league would never have the same cache/earning potential that college sports have in the US. The university system has millions upon millions of built in allegiances with their alumni who will be loyal to their schools through winning and losing. A minor league system wouldn't have the same amount of money coming from television that college sports do and would look like something closer to Minor League Baseball or maybe even Junior Hockey in Canada.

    I actually think Arian Foster is an excellent example for this discussion. Many here have claimed that Arian got ample compensation for his football career at Tennessee. Let's examine that fairly closely.
    1) Foster received an education (in philosophy, actually). That education has had precious little effect on his earning potential in life so far. His earning potential has come entirely from his athletic abilities. He stands to make more money from those abilities than almost anyone makes from their education. That is, unless someone wants to argue that his philosophy degree will earn him more money in the future than the Texans can pay him.
    2) Foster went undrafted, signed with the Texans, and turned into an NFL Star. This tells me that either Tennessee had no idea what they had, didn't teach him properly (which happened in the NFL and caused him to blossom), or the rest of his team was so bad that he was unable to succeed. All three of those reflect poorly on Tennessee.
    3) Foster claims that he didn't have enough money for food. I don't have any knowledge of how Foster spent what little money he got from the school while at Tennesse, although I find it somewhat callous to think he was spending it on things he shouldn't have been. When I was in grad school, I certainly borrowed money to keep myself fed. I had to really stretch every dollar and missed many a meal because I was too proud to ask my parents for money. That amount wasn't much to live on. I was studying Latin. I wasn't trying to keep a highly tuned athletic body in shape on that money.

    Someone explain how Arian Foster benefitted from going to Tennessee.
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  12. #234
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by improbus View Post
    I agree 100% that a minor league would never have the same cache/earning potential that college sports have in the US. The university system has millions upon millions of built in allegiances with their alumni who will be loyal to their schools through winning and losing. A minor league system wouldn't have the same amount of money coming from television that college sports do and would look like something closer to Minor League Baseball or maybe even Junior Hockey in Canada.

    I actually think Arian Foster is an excellent example for this discussion. Many here have claimed that Arian got ample compensation for his football career at Tennessee. Let's examine that fairly closely.
    1) Foster received an education (in philosophy, actually). That education has had precious little effect on his earning potential in life so far. His earning potential has come entirely from his athletic abilities. He stands to make more money from those abilities than almost anyone makes from their education. That is, unless someone wants to argue that his philosophy degree will earn him more money in the future than the Texans can pay him.
    2) Foster went undrafted, signed with the Texans, and turned into an NFL Star. This tells me that either Tennessee had no idea what they had, didn't teach him properly (which happened in the NFL and caused him to blossom), or the rest of his team was so bad that he was unable to succeed. All three of those reflect poorly on Tennessee.
    3) Foster claims that he didn't have enough money for food. I don't have any knowledge of how Foster spent what little money he got from the school while at Tennesse, although I find it somewhat callous to think he was spending it on things he shouldn't have been. When I was in grad school, I certainly borrowed money to keep myself fed. I had to really stretch every dollar and missed many a meal because I was too proud to ask my parents for money. That amount wasn't much to live on. I was studying Latin. I wasn't trying to keep a highly tuned athletic body in shape on that money.

    Someone explain how Arian Foster benefitted from going to Tennessee.
    Is Foster in the nfl without going to Tennessee?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

  13. #235
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Foster was projected to be a 2nd round pick if he comes out as a JR, once again, his fault for staying.
    Go Gators!

  14. #236
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Is Foster in the nfl without going to Tennessee?
    If college football exists, the guys who play in the SEC would have been playing minor league football in an NFL system, so yes, he would be in the NFL without Tennessee.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by improbus View Post
    I agree 100% that a minor league would never have the same cache/earning potential that college sports have in the US. The university system has millions upon millions of built in allegiances with their alumni who will be loyal to their schools through winning and losing. A minor league system wouldn't have the same amount of money coming from television that college sports do and would look like something closer to Minor League Baseball or maybe even Junior Hockey in Canada.

    I actually think Arian Foster is an excellent example for this discussion. Many here have claimed that Arian got ample compensation for his football career at Tennessee. Let's examine that fairly closely.
    1) Foster received an education (in philosophy, actually). That education has had precious little effect on his earning potential in life so far. His earning potential has come entirely from his athletic abilities. He stands to make more money from those abilities than almost anyone makes from their education. That is, unless someone wants to argue that his philosophy degree will earn him more money in the future than the Texans can pay him.
    2) Foster went undrafted, signed with the Texans, and turned into an NFL Star. This tells me that either Tennessee had no idea what they had, didn't teach him properly (which happened in the NFL and caused him to blossom), or the rest of his team was so bad that he was unable to succeed. All three of those reflect poorly on Tennessee.
    3) Foster claims that he didn't have enough money for food. I don't have any knowledge of how Foster spent what little money he got from the school while at Tennesse, although I find it somewhat callous to think he was spending it on things he shouldn't have been. When I was in grad school, I certainly borrowed money to keep myself fed. I had to really stretch every dollar and missed many a meal because I was too proud to ask my parents for money. That amount wasn't much to live on. I was studying Latin. I wasn't trying to keep a highly tuned athletic body in shape on that money.

    Someone explain how Arian Foster benefitted from going to Tennessee.
    I don't know if your reasoning here is sound. If a guy who exceeds expectations in the NFL is an example of someone who was not properly prepared thus Tenn is at fault, then does UT get great praise for preparing a guy who does not meet expectations, like say Heath Shuler? Did Mich improperly prepare Tom Brady for the NFL?

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  17. #238
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    A football career is fleeting. An education benefits you for a lifetime. It's interesting how the media focuses on the superstar athletes, making it seem like they've been done wrong because they weren't paid in college. But no one seems to talk about the much greater number of players who weren't as fortunate to have the talent to go pro after college. I'd be interested in seeing a poll on how many of them would prefer being paid over a free education. I suspect a lot of them have benefited much more from having a college education free from debt than any temporary cash benefit they would have gotten.

    I'm at the point where I'd be fine if the current system were replaced by a semi-pro system. Let players choose free education, room, and board, or let them choose money. But if you choose the money, don't cry about it later when the money runs out and you're left fighting to find a job with no college degree. Me, I would choose a debt free college education, but everyone makes their own choices in life.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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  19. #239
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Aren't there straw men all over the place in this discussion?

    Nobody says they should get paid instead of an education - most people would want both.

    Most people just want these kids to have a more reasonable living stipend and the ability to make money on their name - be it by selling autographs or memorabilia they own or whatever. It's ridiculous the colleges make money selling their jerseys and the players don't benefit.

    Every single NFL player would be in the NFL in a world without the NCAA because they would have all played in whatever system existed instead.

    In this world, of course the players have to play in the NCAA, because that's the system. There is nowhere else to play football at the age of 18-21. People point at the CFL and Arena Leagues as if they are options - these are leagues that don't play by the same rules or even have the same size field as the NFL.
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
    --Oscar Wilde

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  21. #240
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Even the scrubs at Ohio State would be able to make pocket money selling autographs. Local businesses would bring them in in a heartbeat.
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
    --Oscar Wilde

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