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Thread: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

  1. #256
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Sure but how 'bout the scrubs at Youngstown state? The players at OSU will make a lot more than the Youngstown St kids. That's the rub...
    I'm not so worried about them making more than the Youngstown players. Where it gets hairy is them making more than the UC players. Where is REALLY gets hairy is them making more than the players at IU.

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  3. #257
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Sure but how 'bout the scrubs at Youngstown state? The players at OSU will make a lot more than the Youngstown St kids. That's the rub...
    Kids in law school at Harvard probably make more on their internships than kids that go to UC law school.

    So what?

    Sea Ray you're a conservative guy, I know you're a fan of the free market. I'm confident the free market would sort this stuff out if we let it.
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    So in other words, no Foster wouldn't have been able to develop into an nfl talent without his time in college football
    Without time in a developmental league, because 99.9999999% of 18 year olds couldn't play football in the NFL. And there's plenty of money and fan interest in developmental football in this country, some of which should make it's way to the players, because that is what is fair.

    In what other industry could you be paid in a non-monetary way for work and everyone would pretend it's ok? Why is this different?
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  5. #259
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Red View Post
    It wouldn't look just like it does now. Texas Tech will beat the living hell out of Texas on the field this year. Under your proposed system, that would be impossible.
    How would it be impossible?

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    Without time in a developmental league, because 99.9999999% of 18 year olds couldn't play football in the NFL. And there's plenty of money and fan interest in developmental football in this country, some of which should make it's way to the players, because that is what is fair.

    In what other industry could you be paid in a non-monetary way for work and everyone would pretend it's ok? Why is this different?
    Tradition is why it is different and just like all other stupid traditions, this one will eventually go away too. Unfortunately, it is going to be around for quite a while longer.

    I still can't fathom how many people find it acceptable that these guys are being employed without cash payments while in turn the companies they work for are directly signing contracts for billions of dollars due to the work being done by them. It literally hurts my head when I think about it.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    How would it be impossible?
    It would be impossible, because Texas Tech would never win a recruiting battle against Texas under those circumstances. Texas would get ALL the best players and proceed to beat TT 77-0 every year. TT probably wins some recruiting battles now because they can offer playing time that Texas maybe cannot, but who the hell prefers playing time to $75k/year?!?

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  9. #262
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    Without time in a developmental league, because 99.9999999% of 18 year olds couldn't play football in the NFL. And there's plenty of money and fan interest in developmental football in this country, some of which should make it's way to the players, because that is what is fair.

    In what other industry could you be paid in a non-monetary way for work and everyone would pretend it's ok? Why is this different?
    Well, in the legal field, tons of students work as unpaid interns to build their resume before they graduate and pass the bar. Even those who get paid are paid very little. There are plenty of other fields that use college students as unpaid interns. Why do college students compete over these internships when there's no money in it? Sometimes experience is more important than money.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    I disagree. There are only so many player on a college football team that are marketable. You are closer to OSU now that I am but I would imagine there are a handful of players who would be a draw, other than that unless your are a hardcore fan or a young kid you could really care less. At OSU right now you probably have Braxton, Philly Brown, Guiton (now), Shazier, and Roby as guys that most people would recognize and "pay" to get their autograph. There are a bunch of other guys who may have some allure but the draw would be minimal.

    I don't think a business in Columbus would be successful having a "Come meet Devin Smith and Marcus Hall day."
    Somewhere there is a line between honestly made money and an alumni paying you $20,0000 for washing their car. The problem with athletes being employed is the later.

    Believe me at OSU there would be alumni lined up to "employ" guys off the football field.
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

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  12. #264
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Red View Post
    It would be impossible, because Texas Tech would never win a recruiting battle against Texas under those circumstances. Texas would get ALL the best players and proceed to beat TT 77-0 every year. TT probably wins some recruiting battles now because they can offer playing time that Texas maybe cannot, but who the hell prefers playing time to $75k/year?!?
    And yet teams with better talent on paper lose to teams with less talent on paper every weekend in college football. Texas Tech isn't winning any recruiting battles against Texas right now anyways. They win in some cases because there is quicker playing time as you noted.

    Right now, all of the best players are already going to the top 10-15 schools anyways. The top SEC/Big10/Pac10/Big12 schools get what, 90% of the 4 and 5 star recruits? That isn't going to change and it is going to leave everyone else fighting for the scraps, just like it is now. The difference is, the kids actually get more fairly compensated this way.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    In what other industry could you be paid in a non-monetary way for work and everyone would pretend it's ok? Why is this different?
    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I still can't fathom how many people find it acceptable that these guys are being employed without cash payments while in turn the companies they work for are directly signing contracts for billions of dollars due to the work being done by them. It literally hurts my head when I think about it.
    While stating, again, that I don't mind if the athletes get money in principle, I still have to devil's-advocate here: Are all football players employees, or only some players at some places?

    What about the football players at colleges that don't make money on football?

    What about walk-ons? They're not even getting the scholarship.

    What about scholarship athletes in non-revenue sports? They put in the work too.

    What about the people on scholarship for academics or the arts? Are they employees of the university?

    Are high-school football players "workers"? If not, why not? They put in a lot of time. Tickets are sold to the games.

    Where's the dividing line between those who are being exploited and those who are actually getting a heck of a deal? Does it have anything to do with the player himself, or just what boss-man is pulling down?

    OK. Having said that.

    The essential concept of a scholarship is this: We have a football team/tennis team/music department/computer science program, it'll give our university a boost if we attract high-caliber students like you, so if you choose to attend our school, we'll pay some/all of the cost. That has not changed. What has changed is, at SOME colleges -- not nearly all -- the football program is generating ridiculous sums of money now.

    I can accept the reasoning that the money has just become too big among a certain group of schools for strict amateurism to continue. But so many of these screeds read like a blanket dismissal of the entire principle of scholarships, or the mere existence of non-professional sports. Considering the entire universe and not just the Johnny Manziels, I think that's a little myopic.
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  14. #266
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Well, in the legal field, tons of students work as unpaid interns to build their resume before they graduate and pass the bar. Even those who get paid are paid very little. There are plenty of other fields that use college students as unpaid interns. Why do college students compete over these internships when there's no money in it? Sometimes experience is more important than money.
    Unpaid internships should be illegal and we may even be heading towards that with how the whole Black Swan lawsuit turned out.

    Experience is never more important than money. The people with the money just use that crap as a way to keep from giving you money.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    And yet teams with better talent on paper lose to teams with less talent on paper every weekend in college football.
    Yeah, but the talent levels aren't completely out of whack right now. If one school is paying $75k and another can't pay, the school paying $75k is going to get literally every player they want. It will be like Ohio State vs. Wittenberg.

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  18. #268
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    While stating, again, that I don't mind if the athletes get money in principle, I still have to devil's-advocate here: Are all football players employees, or only some players at some places?
    If you have a football program, then they are an employee.

    What about the football players at colleges that don't make money on football?
    Cut your football program.

    What about walk-ons? They're not even getting the scholarship.
    Are they on the team? Then they are an employee. Pay them.

    What about scholarship athletes in non-revenue sports? They put in the work too.
    Like every other business that loses money, cut it off. If your sport can't support itself, then sorry about your luck. No business operates on losses like this. Except for college athletics.

    What about the people on scholarship for academics or the arts? Are they employees of the university?
    Does the school sell the work that they do? If not, then no, they are not employees. If the school is using their work to make money, then yes.

    Are high-school football players "workers"? If not, why not? They put in a lot of time. Tickets are sold to the games.
    Does the sport profit? Are students paying tens of thousands of dollars to go there?

    Where's the dividing line between those who are being exploited and those who are actually getting a heck of a deal? Does it have anything to do with the player himself, or just what boss-man is pulling down?
    The dividing line needs to be somewhere. I don't have a problem with the school making a profit of some kind. They put it all together. But what would be wrong with the school keeping 20-30% profit and the rest gets paid to the players?

    The essential concept of a scholarship is this: We have a football team/tennis team/music department/computer science program, it'll give our university a boost if we attract high-caliber students like you, so if you choose to attend our school, we'll pay some/all of the cost. That has not changed. What has changed is, at SOME colleges -- not nearly all -- the football program is generating ridiculous sums of money now.

    I can accept the reasoning that the money has just become too big among a certain group of schools for strict amateurism to continue. But so many of these screeds read like a blanket dismissal of the entire principle of scholarships, or the mere existence of non-professional sports. Considering the entire universe and not just the Johnny Manziels, I think that's a little myopic.
    I have long said that if a sport can't support itself, either by ticket sales/other revenue sources or by donations, then they shouldn't be operating. Title IX makes that flat out impossible and I hate Title IX for that reason.

    I have no issue at all with scholarships. I get the idea behind them. I like that they are offered. But at the end of the day when the NCAA is signing multi-billion dollar contracts for football and basketball tv deals, then something needs to change if none of that money is going to the players that people care to watch. They are the product. Everyone is getting paid except for the participants. Fix it.

  19. #269
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Red View Post
    Yeah, but the talent levels aren't completely out of whack right now. If one school is paying $75k and another can't pay, the school paying $75k is going to get literally every player they want. It will be like Ohio State vs. Wittenberg.
    They would be though. Each team only has so many spots available. Right now, nor in any future, are Ohio State and Wittenberg going to be going after the same player. Ohio State could have landed every player if they wanted to on the roster of the 2002 Cincinnati Bearcats. Money had nothing to do with it. They could have landed every last player if they wanted to. Yet that 2002 Bearcats team hung right with them. This distribution of talent is already happening and has been for a really long time. The best talent is going to the schools that win. The schools that win keep getting the best talent. The teams with the most money are still going to be those same schools just like the teams with the least money are going to continue to be the teams losing by 30 points to those teams.

  20. #270
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    The differences would be even more pronounced. The concentration of the best players at the most profitable programs would be much greater. Right now, the top 15-20 programs get a great deal of the top players, but there are another 30-40 programs who pick off a number of those top players (some might get one of them; others get 4 or 5 of them a year). With this system, literally the top 300 players would ALL go to one of 10-15 schools that could afford to pay. And they would become WAY too good for everyone else and would probably have to form their own division.


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