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Thread: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

  1. #271
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Red View Post
    The differences would be even more pronounced. The concentration of the best players at the most profitable programs would be much greater. Right now, the top 15-20 programs get a great deal of the top players, but there are another 30-40 programs who pick off a number of those top players (some might get one of them; others get 4 or 5 of them a year). With this system, literally the top 300 players would ALL go to one of 10-15 schools that could afford to pay. And they would become WAY too good for everyone else and would probably have to form their own division.
    Then let it happen. These kids deserve to be paid fairly.

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  3. #272
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    If you have a football program, then they are an employee.
    How do you figure?
    "This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Then let it happen. These kids deserve to be paid fairly.
    That would last a couple of years. And then without competitive balance most people would lose interest, and no one would get paid and lots of people would be out of scholarships. Yay.

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    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I have no issue at all with scholarships. I get the idea behind them. I like that they are offered. But at the end of the day when the NCAA is signing multi-billion dollar contracts for football and basketball tv deals, then something needs to change if none of that money is going to the players that people care to watch. They are the product. Everyone is getting paid except for the participants. Fix it.
    I don't have a problem with that.

    But I don't really get blaming Title IX for a "problem" that existed for the entire 20th century before it and would without it. Or for the insistence that universities operate on the same plane as an ordinary business when they clearly don't, never have and probably never will. And I don't believe you have to kill an entire system where MOST athletes are being more than fairly compensated by means of their scholarships in order to take care of the handful that are obviously being short-changed.
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    I don't have a problem with that.

    But I don't really get blaming Title IX for a "problem" that existed for the entire 20th century before it and would without it. Or for the insistence that universities operate on the same plane as an ordinary business when they clearly don't, never have and probably never will. And I don't believe you have to kill an entire system where MOST athletes are being more than fairly compensated by means of their scholarships in order to take care of the handful that are obviously being short-changed.
    Title IX is a problem because you must have sports that lose money in order to have football. It also means you must pay all athletes if you pay the football players. Without Title IX, you could just cut every sport that can't sustain itself and pay the players for the sports that do actually generate money.

    The systems are killed all of the time to because of a few in spite of the larger group.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Unpaid internships should be illegal and we may even be heading towards that with how the whole Black Swan lawsuit turned out.

    Experience is never more important than money. The people with the money just use that crap as a way to keep from giving you money.
    Why should it be illegal? A lot of law students get experience working internships at small firms, public defenders offices, legal aid, law clinics, and non-profits. These organizations are often the only avenue for legal services for the poor. Since they service the poor, their budgets are very tight. I am a public defender and you would probably be shocked at how low my salary is as a full attorney. If these organizations had to pay all their interns, they wouldn't have interns. They then would not be able to provide services to all the people that need them. But then since these organizations don't make money, do you think they should be cut?

    Not everybody can get awesome legal internships at big firms. In fact, at most law schools that aren't Ivy League, only the top 5-6 students are able to score a paid internship at a big firm. Maybe another 35 get low paying internships with local and state governments or small firms. That leaves around 100 other students trying to find experience any way they can. Unpaid internships fill that role and often lead to full-time paying gigs after graduation. I'm sure those non-profits, public defenders, legal aid services and law clinics would love to pay their interns. But no one is stepping up to give big piles of cash to provide the poor with legal services.

    Applying that to college sports, the number of college sports programs that turn a profit is small compared to the total number of programs out there. If you have to pay atheletes, then the vast majority of college sports programs go bye-bye. Then all you've really succeeded in doing is destroying a system that allows young athletes to continue to compete at a high level beyond high school.
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Title IX is a problem because you must have sports that lose money in order to have football. It also means you must pay all athletes if you pay the football players. Without Title IX, you could just cut every sport that can't sustain itself and pay the players for the sports that do actually generate money.

    The systems are killed all of the time to because of a few in spite of the larger group.
    Actually, women are the larger group in society. They are hardly "the few."
    Burn down the disco. Hang the blessed DJ. Because the music that he constantly plays, it says nothing to me about my life.

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  11. #278
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Unpaid internships should be illegal and we may even be heading towards that with how the whole Black Swan lawsuit turned out.

    Experience is never more important than money. The people with the money just use that crap as a way to keep from giving you money.
    The government has already been cracking down on unpaid internships. While they're legal if used for truly an educational purpose (or volunteer work for non-profit organizations), companies that are using them as a means for free labor are getting hit with fines and back pay for abusing them.

    For an internship to be legal, basically they have to be for an educational purpose, have to work under close supervision of staff and the company hiring the intern cannot gain any sort of immediate advantage by doing so.

    Basically any for-profit enterprise that has interns doing the work of an employee is automatically in violation of labor laws.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Actually, women are the larger group in society. They are hardly "the few."
    You read into that really hard to get that out of what I said didn't you?

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Why should it be illegal? A lot of law students get experience working internships at small firms, public defenders offices, legal aid, law clinics, and non-profits. These organizations are often the only avenue for legal services for the poor. Since they service the poor, their budgets are very tight. I am a public defender and you would probably be shocked at how low my salary is as a full attorney. If these organizations had to pay all their interns, they wouldn't have interns. They then would not be able to provide services to all the people that need them. But then since these organizations don't make money, do you think they should be cut?
    Why should they be illegal? I don't know, because you are doing work for someone and you should be paid for doing work? I have worked several jobs in my life and at every one of them I had to learn how to do things at that job. I still got paid for every second that I was at the place though, even though I was learning how to actually do my job at times. If you are working, you should get paid. I don't care if it provides you with experience or not. If you work then you deserve a paycheck.

    Not everybody can get awesome legal internships at big firms. In fact, at most law schools that aren't Ivy League, only the top 5-6 students are able to score a paid internship at a big firm. Maybe another 35 get low paying internships with local and state governments or small firms. That leaves around 100 other students trying to find experience any way they can. Unpaid internships fill that role and often lead to full-time paying gigs after graduation. I'm sure those non-profits, public defenders, legal aid services and law clinics would love to pay their interns. But no one is stepping up to give big piles of cash to provide the poor with legal services.
    What point does college even exist for if you still need to go out and learn elsewhere? Law school isn't cheap. So here we have people paying a bunch of money to learn, then they have to go out and work for free to learn more? Sorry, but that is flat out ridiculous. Just because it is accepted by a lot of people doesn't mean it should continue to be that way.

    Applying that to college sports, the number of college sports programs that turn a profit is small compared to the total number of programs out there. If you have to pay atheletes, then the vast majority of college sports programs go bye-bye. Then all you've really succeeded in doing is destroying a system that allows young athletes to continue to compete at a high level beyond high school.
    I am perfectly fine with destroying the system if it means that the players who produce a product that makes money do get paid. And if it winds up meaning that the NBA and NFL have to create a true minor league system and start paying 18-21 year olds before they get to the top level, then so be it. I am a firm believer that if you are working, you should be paid. I am also a firm believer that college sports that don't turn a profit should cease to exist.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yachtzee View Post
    Why should it be illegal? A lot of law students get experience working internships at small firms, public defenders offices, legal aid, law clinics, and non-profits. These organizations are often the only avenue for legal services for the poor. Since they service the poor, their budgets are very tight. I am a public defender and you would probably be shocked at how low my salary is as a full attorney. If these organizations had to pay all their interns, they wouldn't have interns. They then would not be able to provide services to all the people that need them. But then since these organizations don't make money, do you think they should be cut?

    Not everybody can get awesome legal internships at big firms. In fact, at most law schools that aren't Ivy League, only the top 5-6 students are able to score a paid internship at a big firm. Maybe another 35 get low paying internships with local and state governments or small firms. That leaves around 100 other students trying to find experience any way they can. Unpaid internships fill that role and often lead to full-time paying gigs after graduation. I'm sure those non-profits, public defenders, legal aid services and law clinics would love to pay their interns. But no one is stepping up to give big piles of cash to provide the poor with legal services.

    Applying that to college sports, the number of college sports programs that turn a profit is small compared to the total number of programs out there. If you have to pay atheletes, then the vast majority of college sports programs go bye-bye. Then all you've really succeeded in doing is destroying a system that allows young athletes to continue to compete at a high level beyond high school.
    The purpose of an intern is not free labor. It's supposed to be used to educate only. Federal labor laws are very clear that the purpose of an internship should be of no benefit to an employer and law firms using desperate students for free labor is, ironically, a clear cut violation of the very law they seek to uphold.

    The problem you mention is that the system is set up for the poor and uneducated to be ignorant and at a disadvantage. The whole system of law is, quite honestly, a sham. The government forces people to be "licensed" to practice law. You need to pass the bar to be licensed. You need a doctorate (usually) to take the bar. You need a master's to get into law school. People should be able to hire anyone they trust to represent them in a court of law. Instead, the government has created a situation where there is a small supply of attorneys that can jack up their rates because of the high demand. Thus, you have desperate graduates that are eager to find a job at a firm where they can make partner at some point down the road, so they are forced to play by the attorney's wicked game of being servants all in the name of "internships."

    If this were about helping the poor, the needy and the ignorant in law, the government would stop telling people who can and cannot practice their preferred profession and let each individual decide who to put their trust and faith in when it comes to defending them. However, it's not about that; lawyers were able to draft legislation and a system where lawyers are rewarded. Imagine that. Once upon a time, statutory construction was to favor the lay-man and said everyday citizen was encouraged to understand the laws. Now, drafters are manipulating the language to confuse the masses and keep them intimidated from performing their civic duty of understanding the basic tenets of law. Those that stay informed can avoid this wicked game, but most people don't know better.

    Bottom line is internships are helpful if they're used for the real purpose: training. But relying on free labor is not the purpose of an internship.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    You need a master's to get into law school... Instead, the government has created a situation where there is a small supply of attorneys that can jack up their rates because of the high demand.
    If you need a masters to get into law school, then someone forgot to tell my law school.

    On the second point, there is a glut of lawyers out there. The LAST thing we have is a small supply of attorneys with high demand for their services.

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  17. #283
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I am also a firm believer that college sports that don't turn a profit should cease to exist.
    I can at least understand that logic in the context of, if you didn't have to pay players in unprofitable sports, it would be easier to pay the ones in the profitable ones.

    What I don't get is, going back to a previous post -- if a school doesn't have any profitable sports and therefore isn't shortchanging some athletes to compensate others, why you give a rip whether they field sports teams or not. At that point, it's no different than a high school. And I'm having a hard time figuring out how abolishing high-school sports makes the world better, or for whose benefit it would be.
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  19. #284
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by IslandRed View Post
    I can at least understand that logic in the context of, if you didn't have to pay players in unprofitable sports, it would be easier to pay the ones in the profitable ones.

    What I don't get is, going back to a previous post -- if a school doesn't have any profitable sports and therefore isn't shortchanging some athletes to compensate others, why you give a rip whether they field sports teams or not. At that point, it's no different than a high school. And I'm having a hard time figuring out how abolishing high-school sports makes the world better, or for whose benefit it would be.
    High school sports are a lot cheaper than college sports. They take buses across town. College sports take flights across the country.

    If a school has no profitable sports teams, then they shouldn't have sports. If the physics department were losing money hand over foot to run, they would cut the physics department. For some reason in sports it is ok to just lose millions of dollars a year, you know, for the good of the morale.

    The #1 goal of a school is to educate. You can educate without sports.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    A scholarship could be adequate compensation for high level collegiate athletes, in my opinion, if there were still some semblance of a 'college' experience afforded to these men and women. As is, and certainly in football and basketball, they are subject to a quasi-professional lifestyle--weights, meetings, practice, travel, not to mention the necessary school work.

    At most schools, athletes are sheltered away from the rest of the student body where they eat, where they study, where they live, and obviously where they practice. If college athletics is about developing people and shaping futures, let's allow athletes to have a college experience. Cap practice time, meeting time, etc. Mix them in with the student body for housing, dining, and other extracurricular activities. Form conferences conducive to shorter travel allowing athletes more time on campus.

    Until then, if they're going to live and work like professionals while in "college," they should be compensated as such. Certainly to the extent they can monetize their own name and likeness on the open market.

    Schools that don't/can't make money in intercollegiate athletics really need to think about how sports fit in with their broad educational mission, both from a school and student perspective.

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