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Thread: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Your response was "good" to teams limiting the jersey sales to certain numbers, none that correspond to current players. My question was, how is that good?
    How crazy must it be to see hundreds if not thousands of people wearing YOUR number because of YOU and you get nothing for it, especially when those jersey can cost over $100 each? I would be pretty resentful that my coaches, the school, and everyone involved is telling me about the evils of getting a free meal here and there while they are massively profiting off my accomplishments. If the schools truly believe that the institution and brand of their team is more important than any individual player, then leave the jerseys numberless. But, by putting the numbers on the jerseys, they are acknowledging that the players are an important part in the marketing of the team and that creates an issue for them.
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  3. #347
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Lester Munson of ESPN sums up the daunting task in front of the NCAA. My favorite part of the article included a quote from an NCAA official about their gameplan. It is classic (and patronizing).

    http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/...yers-set-begin
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by improbus View Post
    How crazy must it be to see hundreds if not thousands of people wearing YOUR number because of YOU and you get nothing for it, especially when those jersey can cost over $100 each? I would be pretty resentful that my coaches, the school, and everyone involved is telling me about the evils of getting a free meal here and there while they are massively profiting off my accomplishments. If the schools truly believe that the institution and brand of their team is more important than any individual player, then leave the jerseys numberless. But, by putting the numbers on the jerseys, they are acknowledging that the players are an important part in the marketing of the team and that creates an issue for them.
    Is it your number or someone else's number who played prior to you?

    The article posted last week said that each school got $3-$4 in royalties for each jersey sold. In essence the school isn't making that much money off you in regards to jersey sales.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Is it your number or someone else's number who played prior to you?

    The article posted last week said that each school got $3-$4 in royalties for each jersey sold. In essence the school isn't making that much money off you in regards to jersey sales.
    $3-$4 a jersey doesn't sound like much until you start multiplying it by tens, hundreds and thousands. If Texas A&M sold 1,000 Johnny Manziel jerseys at $3-$4 apiece, that's $3,000-$4,000. Maybe Manziel doesn't need that money but he's the exception rather than the rule.
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    $3-$4 a jersey doesn't sound like much until you start multiplying it by tens, hundreds and thousands. If Texas A&M sold 1,000 Johnny Manziel jerseys at $3-$4 apiece, that's $3,000-$4,000. Maybe Manziel doesn't need that money but he's the exception rather than the rule.
    Auburn's athletic department made over $100M last year. A huge chunk of that is from selling licensed swag. This is very big money.
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    $3-$4 a jersey doesn't sound like much until you start multiplying it by tens, hundreds and thousands. If Texas A&M sold 1,000 Johnny Manziel jerseys at $3-$4 apiece, that's $3,000-$4,000. Maybe Manziel doesn't need that money but he's the exception rather than the rule.
    Lets say that Texas A&M sold 10,000 of Manziel's jersey's during his tenure at A&M. The school gets around $30K-$40K for those jersey sales. That includes 3 years of education that A&M gave him. Now Manziel was the face of A&M during his tenure, but a large part of his success was because of two top 10 tackles in Jockel and Matthews. How many people do you think are sporting the numbers of those two big uglies? How about the guards and center who protected him during his career at A&M? Should they share in the success of Manziel?

    There are very few players in college football who can generate enough buzz to bring more revenue into the school than already comes in. From a more personal aspect, Braxton Miller at OSU has generated a ton of buzz during his 4 years at OSU. He has been a very good QB from the moment he stepped onto campus and has provided an undefeated season as well as a successful Jr. campaign. I would seriously doubt that he brought in any more revenue that would have come in if Kenny Guiton was the starting QB. Big time college football programs are well oiled machines, they have been successful long before the star of the moment shows up on campus and will be successful long after they leave.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Lets say that Texas A&M sold 10,000 of Manziel's jersey's during his tenure at A&M. The school gets around $30K-$40K for those jersey sales. That includes 3 years of education that A&M gave him. Now Manziel was the face of A&M during his tenure, but a large part of his success was because of two top 10 tackles in Jockel and Matthews. How many people do you think are sporting the numbers of those two big uglies? How about the guards and center who protected him during his career at A&M? Should they share in the success of Manziel?

    There are very few players in college football who can generate enough buzz to bring more revenue into the school than already comes in. From a more personal aspect, Braxton Miller at OSU has generated a ton of buzz during his 4 years at OSU. He has been a very good QB from the moment he stepped onto campus and has provided an undefeated season as well as a successful Jr. campaign. I would seriously doubt that he brought in any more revenue that would have come in if Kenny Guiton was the starting QB. Big time college football programs are well oiled machines, they have been successful long before the star of the moment shows up on campus and will be successful long after they leave.
    It's winning that drives revenue because winning drives swag sales.
    "This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    It's winning that drives revenue because winning drives swag sales.
    Right. How many people were talking about A&M before Manziel? They were similar in stature to Virginia Tech (who was put on the map nationally to Manziel's best comp, Michael Vick). Every decade or so they have a nice little run. All of a sudden, they are talked about on a national scale. Why doesn't Missouri get that kind of attention? Their record has been just as good over the last few years (and they joined the SEC at the same time). Missouri isn't putting $450 million into their stadium like A&M is. For the programs on the fringes, a player like Manziel is a huge deal.
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Football is god in Texas. A&M may not have had the national profile they have now, but to assume they were Virginia Tech before Manziel got there is laughable.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Lets say that Texas A&M sold 10,000 of Manziel's jersey's during his tenure at A&M. The school gets around $30K-$40K for those jersey sales. That includes 3 years of education that A&M gave him. Now Manziel was the face of A&M during his tenure, but a large part of his success was because of two top 10 tackles in Jockel and Matthews. How many people do you think are sporting the numbers of those two big uglies? How about the guards and center who protected him during his career at A&M? Should they share in the success of Manziel?
    Whether Manziel was on scholarship is irrelevant. The university is making money off another person's exploits and accomplishments and that person receives nothing from it. Yes, he does receive an education but he would receive that whether he won the Heisman or was 3rd string. If a professor wrote a best selling book, they would profit from the book instead of the university. As for Manziel's linemen, the last time I looked this was a capitalist economy. If their jerseys sell, they should receive some money from it. If Manziel would like to give some or all of his jersey money to his teammates, that's his business.

    There are very few players in college football who can generate enough buzz to bring more revenue into the school than already comes in. From a more personal aspect, Braxton Miller at OSU has generated a ton of buzz during his 4 years at OSU. He has been a very good QB from the moment he stepped onto campus and has provided an undefeated season as well as a successful Jr. campaign. I would seriously doubt that he brought in any more revenue that would have come in if Kenny Guiton was the starting QB. Big time college football programs are well oiled machines, they have been successful long before the star of the moment shows up on campus and will be successful long after they leave.
    That's a good point but hardly relevant. Miller was the QB and Guiton was not. To the victor belongs the spoils. Big time programs are well oiled machines. But they are nothing without the players.
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Football is god in Texas. A&M may not have had the national profile they have now, but to assume they were Virginia Tech before Manziel got there is laughable.
    Agreed, but A&M is a regional team that hasn't mattered much outside of Texas in a long time.

    They are bigger financially than Virginia Tech, but Tech's national profile and accomplishments in the last 25 years are a little more impressive. VT has been to 6 BCS bowls (albeit from a lesser conference).

    A&M has played in 1. A&M won the Big 12 in 1998, but have never played in its championship game. From 1991 to 2010, they went 2-12 in bowl games and have only finished in the top 10 in an end of season poll once in the last 20 years. They have 34 guys on NFL rosters.

    Tech has won 5 conference championships since 1999, from 1991 to 2010 they were 8-9 in bowl games. They have finished the season in the top 25 six times in the last 20 years. They have 32 guys on NFL rosters currently (according to ESPN).

    BTW, Andrew Luck had the same effect at Stanford. He might have benefited from playing with a bunch of NFL players, but it was his name, fame, and reputation that brought Stanford into the national consciousness. That kind of stuff matters.
    Last edited by improbus; 06-09-2014 at 12:12 PM.
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    The trial has been interesting. If you want updates, follow @byberkowitz

    The NCAA's defense has been that the players have no right to the television money that the leagues get because the leagues are selling the rights to the stadium and the games, but not the players. The plaintiff did point out that one of those contracts gives a TV network the right to market the individual players before and during the games. Oops.

    The NCAA is also making the following claims:
    -The players have no rights. (Duh, that is why we are at this stage.)
    -The fans will go/watch Alabama football regardless of who is on the field. They are going to watch Alabama. (This might be the case for a short time, but that would change quickly. There is a reason Alabama gets huge crowds and UAB doesn't.)
    -Sharing the money with the players would upset the competitive balance. (Like that actually exists.)
    -They are trying to maintain a balance between academics and athletics. (Nice thought, but that would compromise their product.)
    -The players get tons of "fringe" benefits like access to nice facilities. (Those palatial facilities exist because they have to do something with the money they get.)
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by improbus View Post
    The trial has been interesting. If you want updates, follow @byberkowitz

    The NCAA's defense has been that the players have no right to the television money that the leagues get because the leagues are selling the rights to the stadium and the games, but not the players. The plaintiff did point out that one of those contracts gives a TV network the right to market the individual players before and during the games. Oops.

    The NCAA is also making the following claims:
    -The players have no rights. (Duh, that is why we are at this stage.)
    -The fans will go/watch Alabama football regardless of who is on the field. They are going to watch Alabama. (This might be the case for a short time, but that would change quickly. There is a reason Alabama gets huge crowds and UAB doesn't.)
    -Sharing the money with the players would upset the competitive balance. (Like that actually exists.)
    -They are trying to maintain a balance between academics and athletics. (Nice thought, but that would compromise their product.)
    -The players get tons of "fringe" benefits like access to nice facilities. (Those palatial facilities exist because they have to do something with the money they get.)
    This is the point you don't get. Big time college football programs will always draw fans. People go to watch Alabama because it is Alabama, it is the success they have had in the past, the large number of fans they have, the tradition they have built up. UAB doesn't have big crowds because it has little tradition, it has a history of being bad, they don't have a storied history with competitiveness and championships.

    Teams like OSU, Michigan, ND, PSU, Alabama, etc. are going to sell out the stadium regardless of who is on the field. I have been to OSU games started by Bellisari, Zwick, Smith, Krenzel, Boeckman, Bauserman, Miller, and Pryor. Regardless of who was the starting QB I went because it was OSU football. I will continue to go to OSU football whenever I get tickets because it is OSU football, not what players on the field.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    This is the point you don't get. Big time college football programs will always draw fans. People go to watch Alabama because it is Alabama, it is the success they have had in the past, the large number of fans they have, the tradition they have built up. UAB doesn't have big crowds because it has little tradition, it has a history of being bad, they don't have a storied history with competitiveness and championships.

    Teams like OSU, Michigan, ND, PSU, Alabama, etc. are going to sell out the stadium regardless of who is on the field. I have been to OSU games started by Bellisari, Zwick, Smith, Krenzel, Boeckman, Bauserman, Miller, and Pryor. Regardless of who was the starting QB I went because it was OSU football. I will continue to go to OSU football whenever I get tickets because it is OSU football, not what players on the field.
    I think you are right in one sense but your answer is incomplete. I do agree that Ohio Stadium will fill up on a weekly basis because of the tradition and the affiliation with the schools. But, let's say that the NFL formed their own developmental league and the best young players went there to hone their skills for the NFL and get paid to do it. That left much lesser players in their place and the quality of the Big Ten became the current quality of the MAC or even worse, a division lower. Would the television companies be willing to shell out that kind of money to broadcast a bad product? I do think there is a talent level breaking point. Part of the appeal of college football and college basketball for people not directly affiliated with a school is seeing "Who's Next?"
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by improbus View Post
    I think you are right in one sense but your answer is incomplete. I do agree that Ohio Stadium will fill up on a weekly basis because of the tradition and the affiliation with the schools. But, let's say that the NFL formed their own developmental league and the best young players went there to hone their skills for the NFL and get paid to do it. That left much lesser players in their place and the quality of the Big Ten became the current quality of the MAC or even worse, a division lower. Would the television companies be willing to shell out that kind of money to broadcast a bad product? I do think there is a talent level breaking point. Part of the appeal of college football and college basketball for people not directly affiliated with a school is seeing "Who's Next?"
    I have made this point before but I will bring it up again. I don't think it is possible to create a minor league football league. When you break down the finances of the situation it just doesn't seem possible. First of all you would need a place to play the games. It wouldn't be in an NFL city and it wouldn't be in a college town with a traditional football team. Lets assume that the Bengals are going to start a minor league team somewhere near by. Maybe they go to Dayton, other than that I don't know where they would put the team. Lexington, Louisville, and Columbus all have college teams that do pretty well in terms of fan support. Then they would need to find a venue to play in. Could they play in Welcome Stadium and all 10,000 of it seating capacity? Would they have to build a new stadium? Any university with a football program likely isn't going to let the developmental teams use the stadium because they would be the competition. Next you would have to think about roster size and compensation. It would be at least 63 and probably less than the 85+ that colleges use. Lets say your roster is 70 people. Finally you would have to pay the players. Granted some of the players would be there because they didn't want to go to school, and the compensation would be nice, but what would you set it at? It would have to be higher than what the compensation that universities provide, at least $30K a year, more around $50K. You may have a star who gets an endorsement deal, and perhaps a six figure deal, but the vast majority of the players are going to be average, or the ones not cut out to stick with school for four years. Lets say you average paying players $50K and have 70 on your roster, will an NFL team want to outlay at least $3.5M/year in costs for a minor league team? The NFL can print money, but investing it in a losing proposition year in year out when they have a pretty effective minor league system in place right now doesn't make sense.


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