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Thread: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

  1. #61
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    Glad to be entertaining, hope you got a degree in something that allows you to rise higher than admin assistant or middle manager. You're a rarity if you did.
    I think that's on the pretty extreme side of cynical.
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    If universities are to play athletes then they should be treated like every other staff member. There are many jobs in which someone works under a company name but rents space. The benefits scholarship college athletes gets are pretty impressive. As I have said in another post, a guy like Braxton Miller is as responsible for OSU selling out as Terelle Pryor, Troy Smith, Woody Hays, Jim Tressel, Eddie George, Archie Griffin, etc are.
    Then why was Jim paid millions and millions of dollars and the other guys paid in things that weren't cash nor transferable for cash that they could use toward buying things?

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    Glad to be entertaining, hope you got a degree in something that allows you to rise higher than admin assistant or middle manager. You're a rarity if you did.
    While the gap is shrinking, you seem completely unaware of the hole you put yourself in by not pursuing higher education...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    College educations are nearly worthless. Nobody is impressed with a Kent State degree or whatever, it's not opening the doors it opened in 1955.

    It's incredible to me how this argument seems to devolve into people crying about how much they paid for their education, therefore athletes should be satisfied to get theirs for free, ignoring that the athletes have value to the college.

    You do not. If you did, academically or athletically, you'd have a scholarship. Your value to the university is your tuition.
    You seem to be ignoring the value of the scholarship?

    It goes both ways...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    If we opened up the market and allowed Johnny Manziel to go to the highest bidder, what would he get? I would guess that he would get at least $1 million (and I bet it would be higher). Yet, Texas A&M gets him for $40,000 and some fringe benefits.

    I'm not trying to devalue education. For 97% of college athletes, a scholarship is ample (and probably excessive) compensation for their contribution to the school. But, for the super elite 3 percent of basketball and football players, it is massively exploitative.
    Variatio delectat - Cicero

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by *BaseClogger* View Post
    While the gap is shrinking, you seem completely unaware of the hole you put yourself in by not pursuing higher education...
    I have no degree and I'm ridiculously ahead of my peer group in about every measurable financial way, unless they had trust funds or large inheritances (and I'd even beat some of those.)

    So yeah, I'm unaware I guess.

    I know you'll say small sample size, but my response is that the data you're looking at is all backwards looking and has little to do with what is happening now and will happen in the future.

    Surely, everyone has to realize college degrees have been devalued with so many people getting them, and that's not even getting into the dubious cost to benefit ratio after the last decade of skyrocketing tuition. I sort of work in the field, kids and adults going to school are 100% getting a raw deal. The only way it makes sense to go to school is if it's free or heavily discounted, or if you really have your heart set on something that actually requires the knowledge to do the job (doctor, lawyer, accountant, etc.) I just don't think colleges are giving up something incredibly valuable to these athletes.

    I shouldn't have said worthless, I was being glib. It has some worth. Not as much as some seem to think, and not nearly enough to be just compensation for the more elite athletes.

    As an aside, Braxton Miller might not be the reason Ohio State sells out, but he's a big reason they went 12-0 last year, and 12-0 sells a lot more jerseys than 6-6. I've lived in Columbus under both scenarios, and it's pretty apparent.
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    I have no degree and I'm ridiculously ahead of my peer group in about every measurable financial way, unless they had trust funds or large inheritances (and I'd even beat some of those.)

    So yeah, I'm unaware I guess.

    I know you'll say small sample size, but my response is that the data you're looking at is all backwards looking and has little to do with what is happening now and will happen in the future.

    Surely, everyone has to realize college degrees have been devalued with so many people getting them, and that's not even getting into the dubious cost to benefit ratio after the last decade of skyrocketing tuition. I sort of work in the field, kids and adults going to school are 100% getting a raw deal. The only way it makes sense to go to school is if it's free or heavily discounted, or if you really have your heart set on something that actually requires the knowledge to do the job (doctor, lawyer, accountant, etc.) I just don't think colleges are giving up something incredibly valuable to these athletes.

    I shouldn't have said worthless, I was being glib. It has some worth. Not as much as some seem to think, and not nearly enough to be just compensation for the more elite athletes.

    As an aside, Braxton Miller might not be the reason Ohio State sells out, but he's a big reason they went 12-0 last year, and 12-0 sells a lot more jerseys than 6-6. I've lived in Columbus under both scenarios, and it's pretty apparent.
    Sounds like more rationilization to vindicate one's choices than truth. It seems you are ridiculously ahead of your peer group in lacking humility also. While some of university is more trade school than intellectual pursuit, there is more to receiving a higher education than wage potential at some point in time.
    Last edited by traderumor; 03-22-2013 at 12:45 PM.
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by improbus View Post
    If we opened up the market and allowed Johnny Manziel to go to the highest bidder, what would he get? I would guess that he would get at least $1 million (and I bet it would be higher). Yet, Texas A&M gets him for $40,000 and some fringe benefits.

    I'm not trying to devalue education. For 97% of college athletes, a scholarship is ample (and probably excessive) compensation for their contribution to the school. But, for the super elite 3 percent of basketball and football players, it is massively exploitative.
    Why is he worth that? Because of A&M's exposure. He doesn't get that opportunity in a vacuum, he is on a team. A&M hit big on a penny stock. They had the risk, they get the reward.
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    Sounds like more rationilization to vindicate one's choices than truth.
    Honestly not trying to offend you, but this is what I would have said about your earlier posts on this subject.

    All the non-wage benefits of a university education can be accomplished via self study, both the academic and socialization aspects. Possibly an argument could be made for the networking, which I would accept for the kids who get into Harvard, Stanford, etc.
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Meh, I actually agree with most of what you are saying, but you seem pretty set in your ways. I don't mean to be dismissive, but you literally "wouldn't understand" since you didn't go to school...
    "On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    Honestly not trying to offend you, but this is what I would have said about your earlier posts on this subject.

    All the non-wage benefits of a university education can be accomplished via self study, both the academic and socialization aspects. Possibly an argument could be made for the networking, which I would accept for the kids who get into Harvard, Stanford, etc.
    What I would say is that you are building a strawman at best, as well as begging the question. I'm glad you have found a path that does not involve higher education and succeeding in your current situation.

    However, it is arrogant to devalue an entire path because it is not the one you chose and you're thriving. Your argument as presented thus far assumes (begging the question) you have exhausted the cash and non-cash benefits of a college degree, compared it to your earnings, and declared a college education to add no value, with "compared to my current lifetime earnings, I'm ahead and I don't have a college degree."

    Perhaps you would not have used this flawed logic.............with more education!
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    As an aside, Braxton Miller might not be the reason Ohio State sells out, but he's a big reason they went 12-0 last year, and 12-0 sells a lot more jerseys than 6-6. I've lived in Columbus under both scenarios, and it's pretty apparent.
    I was in college during the end of the Cooper years with Bellisari at the helm. I was also there in 2002 and 2003 when the team won a National Championship as well as were in the hunt for a second up until the last game of the season. Regardless of the team there weren't any empty seats in any of the games I attended and there sure weren't a shortage of OSU jerseys.

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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    What I would say is that you are building a strawman at best, as well as begging the question. I'm glad you have found a path that does not involve higher education and succeeding in your current situation.

    However, it is arrogant to devalue an entire path because it is not the one you chose and you're thriving. Your argument as presented thus far assumes (begging the question) you have exhausted the cash and non-cash benefits of a college degree, compared it to your earnings, and declared a college education to add no value, with "compared to my current lifetime earnings, I'm ahead and I don't have a college degree."

    Perhaps you would not have used this flawed logic.............with more education!
    40% of college grads are taking jobs today that don't require a degree. How many more college grads are working in a field that doesn't require the degree that they do have?

    Let's also not confuse education with knowledge. Just because someone didn't go to college doesn't mean they aren't incredibly knowledgeable.

  16. #74
    A Little to the Left Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    What I would say is that you are building a strawman at best, as well as begging the question. I'm glad you have found a path that does not involve higher education and succeeding in your current situation.

    However, it is arrogant to devalue an entire path because it is not the one you chose and you're thriving. Your argument as presented thus far assumes (begging the question) you have exhausted the cash and non-cash benefits of a college degree, compared it to your earnings, and declared a college education to add no value, with "compared to my current lifetime earnings, I'm ahead and I don't have a college degree."

    Perhaps you would not have used this flawed logic.............with more education!
    Arrogant, possibly, I'm not seeing the flawed logic, and you're not proving it with your post. Just saying it is so, does not make it so. Crying strawman and saying I'm begging the question is so incredibly lazy unless you're going to specifically point it out. You didn't refute anything I said, surely you see that? I'm discussing it all in good faith, but you're just devolving into name calling and lazy arguments.

    It's very possible I haven't "exhausted" the benefits and non-benefits of a college education, but you're not showing me any of which I'm unaware, so I guess I'll just stay ignorant.

    You seem really touchy about your education and it's merits. I know it probably sucks sending in that student loan check every month (of course, I wouldn't know!), but it's still possible to consider it all rationally.

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    I was in college during the end of the Cooper years with Bellisari at the helm. I was also there in 2002 and 2003 when the team won a National Championship as well as were in the hunt for a second up until the last game of the season. Regardless of the team there weren't any empty seats in any of the games I attended and there sure weren't a shortage of OSU jerseys.
    I was at Ohio State for Bellisari also (I didn't graduate so wasn't there anymore in 2002, but was still in Columbus) and I saw a difference. I saw empty seats too. They were officially sell outs though. But 1999 was after a pretty good decade, give me 4-5 1999's in a row and things would change, and it's guys like Braxton Miller who ensure that doesn't happen.
    We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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    Re: O'Bannon v. NCAA (aka Could Ohio State go D3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    Arrogant, possibly, I'm not seeing the flawed logic, and you're not proving it with your post. Just saying it is so, does not make it so. Crying strawman and saying I'm begging the question is so incredibly lazy unless you're going to specifically point it out. You didn't refute anything I said, surely you see that? I'm discussing it all in good faith, but you're just devolving into name calling and lazy arguments.

    It's very possible I haven't "exhausted" the benefits and non-benefits of a college education, but you're not showing me any of which I'm unaware, so I guess I'll just stay ignorant.

    You seem really touchy about your education and it's merits. I know it probably sucks sending in that student loan check every month (of course, I wouldn't know!), but it's still possible to consider it all rationally.



    I was at Ohio State for Bellisari also (I didn't graduate so wasn't there anymore in 2002, but was still in Columbus) and I saw a difference. I saw empty seats too. They were officially sell outs though. But 1999 was after a pretty good decade, give me 4-5 1999's in a row and things would change, and it's guys like Braxton Miller who ensure that doesn't happen.
    I most certainly demonstrated you begging the question. Your strawman is constructed of the arguments that you have used already. You are making the claims, I rebutted them AND demonstrated exactly HOW you were begging the question.

    If you think a college education is not valuable, that's dandy. But please do not present your opinion as if you have evidence to support it because you think you've outearned your peers to date (more begging the question).

    The funny thing is that I am not a "you MUST go to college if you want to make it in this world...." type of guy, so the ad hominem "touchy" attack is misplaced. For example, I have not saved a dime for my kids college education, that's their choice. If they go, I will financially support them to help them get ahead, if they don't I will support them to help them get ahead.

    I am merely addressing your arrogance and weak, illogical argumentation on the subject. As for being irrational, that is defined as illogical argumentation. But you go on with your bad self, Mr. Alger.
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