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Thread: Chapman will close

  1. #31
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: Chapman will close

    Quote Originally Posted by holster10 View Post
    one has to wonder what is going on and why the Reds are dragging their feet on this issue? something is definitely going on when I hear Baker, scouts, and media raving about Leake's performance this spring and yet he's getting lit up like a Christmas tree.
    Well, it's not like Leake has given up 10 runs in his last 6.1 innings or anything ... oh, wait

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  3. #32
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    Re: Chapman will close

    As I write this, another Dodger just homered against the hapless Mike Leake and another followed with a double. Today's decision naming Leake as the fifth Reds starting pitcher casts dark clouds of futility over a promising team before the 2013 season has even started. When Chapman was being considered as a starter, an unmistakable feeling of hope was in the Spring air, and it was helping erase the bad memories of the Reds' epic playoffs stumble last fall.

    The Reds have just two quality starters, and a third who MAY be coming into his own. But they now also have two starters who lose neary 50% of their games. Arroyo is a capable, but aging journeyman who everyone hopes has another year or two in him. But Leake leaves fans with a sense of hopelessness before every pitching appearance, even as opposing batters approach the stadium with a gleam in their eyes.

    In a twisted way, keeping Chapman in the bullpen indicates that Manager Dusty Baker doesn't have complete faith in his own starting rotation, and of course, he shouldn't. Chances are that Leake will continue to give up runs in groups early in most of his starts (like today) and force the Reds to come from behind game after game after game. He is a head case on the road to mediocrity and the Reds should have banished him to the minor leagues the day he was caught stealing two years ago.

    And what if something happens to Cueto again, or to Latos or Bailey? It will be a hopeless playoffs scenario all over again, that's what, with no prospective ace ready to step forward.

    The Reds need four reliable, young starters, not just three. Clearly, Aroldis Chapman could become a dominating ace. You don't win a pennant this way. In Cincinnati, the hopes of spring just died.
    Last edited by HDBoy; 03-22-2013 at 05:58 PM.

  4. #33
    malingered here too long malcontent's Avatar
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    Re: Chapman will close

    Quote Originally Posted by texasdave View Post
    A pitcher is taught in Little League to go on and throw the pitch.
    I'm just wondering if it's a little different for Cueto with his delivery where he doesn't even see the plate at first....so that by the time he first notices the guy has backed out he's practically at his release point.

    That's why I'm afraid this could happen again if they're not careful.

  5. #34
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    Re: Chapman will close

    Wonder if I can get a refund on the package of tickets I bought a couple weeks back. If I have to suffer through watching Mike Leake pitch, I'll go insane.

  6. #35
    Wait... What? Vander's Avatar
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    Re: Chapman will close

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...MLB/2012.shtml

    Look at last year's era+. The Reds had the best in the majors last year (127) with, basically, the same pitching staff as they have now. The next closest era+ was Tampa with a full seven point drop-off. Whether Chapman is in the rotation or the bullpen, this pitching staff is a force to be reckoned with.

    I'm not saying that keeping Chapman as the closer is the right choice. But from what I'm reading, many seem to think that unless Chapman was named a starter, then suddenly this staff becomes weak. That reaction just ignores the stats, and is a complete overreaction.

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    Re: Chapman will close

    Duhsty strikes again....

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    Re: Chapman will close

    Quote Originally Posted by Vander View Post
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...MLB/2012.shtml

    Look at last year's era+. The Reds had the best in the majors last year (127) with, basically, the same pitching staff as they have now.
    And it turned out that team still did not quite have the starting pitching depth necessary to make it out of the playoffs and into the World Series. Just this afternoon, that same pitching staff, led by Home Bailey, is getting shellacked by the Mariners in a 16-hit, 16-run outing, just a week before the season opener. Over the weekend, two other starters, Latos and Arroyo, apparently escaped serious injury when they each were hammered by hard-hit comebackers to the mound.

    The Reds starting pitchers are skating on thin, late-winter ice with inadequate depth. After a few days of reflection, I still have a very bad feeling about the decision to keep Chapman in the bullpen. This fireballing Cuban is one the most exciting and overpowering pitchers to come along in years, and the Reds are relegating him to the bullpen. This guy has Bob Feller, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson and Nolan Ryan-like stuff. And he's in the bullpen while Mike Leake and Bailey are giving up runs in bunches?

    I don't get it. I will never get it.
    Last edited by HDBoy; 03-25-2013 at 07:21 PM.

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    Norm Chortleton (03-25-2013)

  10. #38
    Wait... What? Vander's Avatar
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    Re: Chapman will close

    Quote Originally Posted by HDBoy View Post
    And it turned out that team still did not quite have the starting pitching depth necessary to make it out of the playoffs and into the World Series.
    If you take away Matt Cain from the Giants, they don't win the World Series. If you take away Justin Verlander from the Tigers, they don't win the pennent. We lost Cueto after a single batter, an inning that made me feel very similar to when the Kimo incident went down. Cueto is our horse; our ace. Any team that loses that has a steep hill to climb. In essence, we just had extremely bad luck.

    And remember, we still could have won that series even without Cueto, if it weren't for some boneheaded plays on defense, the base paths, and Dusty's head. I think we all know what I'm talking about... Still, I think it's a great sign that we actually managed to win two games in that series even with a game 1 tragedy.

    Quote Originally Posted by HDBoy View Post
    Just this afternoon, that same pitching staff, led by Home Bailey, is getting shellacked by the Mariners in a 16-hit, 16-run outing, just a week before the season opener.
    It's a preseason game against the Mariners. Perspective, man.

    The eventual 2013 champions, whoever they may be (hopefully the Reds), will lose a lot of games this year; 50-60 at least. In those 50-60 losses, some will be blow outs, some will be against horrid teams, and some will be both. After those losses, members of their fan bases will storm their way to their computer screens to vent their rage at their computer screens, because clearly, something is rotten in Denmark. And yet, at the end of the season, when their team is hoisting the trophy, they will again storm their way to their computer screens and say that they were right all along, and that the haters were delusional all this time.

    Do you know what none of them will say?

    "Man, this World Series was nice and all... But imagine how great this would have felt if we had beaten the Mariners in March!"

    It means nothing, man. They're all working out the final kinks in everything. Bailey had something like an 8.00 era last spring as well. Breathe....

    Quote Originally Posted by HDBoy View Post
    Over the weekend, two other starters, Latos and Arroyo, apparently escaped serious injury when they each were hammered by hard-hit comebackers to the mound.

    The Reds starting pitchers are skating on thin, late-winter ice with inadequate depth.
    I, too, was holding my breath after those two went down. Fortunately, nothing came of it.

    Unfortunately, we can't predict the future. However, if one of our starters happens to go down, I think we may be shocked at how capable Cingrani might be as a #5 for a few weeks. Depth is a concern for everyone, but we actually have more options than most.

    Quote Originally Posted by HDBoy View Post
    After a few days of reflection, I still have a very bad feeling about the decision to keep Chapman in the bullpen. This fireballing Cuban is one the most exciting and overpowering pitchers to come along in years, and the Reds are relegating him to the bullpen. This guy has Bob Feller, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson and Nolan Ryan-like stuff. And he's in the bullpen while Mike Leake and Bailey are giving up runs in bunches?
    I think if Chapman were capable of pitching like Koufax or Feller right now, he'd be in the rotation. It's not like Jocketty has a desire to lose.

    That said, I agree with you that he has too much talent to be in the bullpen. I just think you and many on this board are being a bit too overly dramatic.

    Quote Originally Posted by HDBoy View Post
    I don't get it. I will never get it.
    Remember my comment on predicting the... Oh hell, nevermind...

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    jhu1321 (03-26-2013)

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    Re: Chapman will close

    Quote Originally Posted by tsdavis11 View Post
    Wonder if I can get a refund on the package of tickets I bought a couple weeks back. If I have to suffer through watching Mike Leake pitch, I'll go insane.

    I think it is very unfair to rate a pitcher with just two years experience in proball. How many pitchers have made the major league roster in their first year in pro ball? Look at how look it took Bailey to get to where he is now.

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    Re: Chapman will close

    Quote Originally Posted by HDBoy View Post
    And it turned out that team still did not quite have the starting pitching depth necessary to make it out of the playoffs and into the World Series. Just this afternoon, that same pitching staff, led by Home Bailey, is getting shellacked by the Mariners in a 16-hit, 16-run outing, just a week before the season opener. Over the weekend, two other starters, Latos and Arroyo, apparently escaped serious injury when they each were hammered by hard-hit comebackers to the mound.

    The Reds starting pitchers are skating on thin, late-winter ice with inadequate depth. After a few days of reflection, I still have a very bad feeling about the decision to keep Chapman in the bullpen. This fireballing Cuban is one the most exciting and overpowering pitchers to come along in years, and the Reds are relegating him to the bullpen. This guy has Bob Feller, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson and Nolan Ryan-like stuff. And he's in the bullpen while Mike Leake and Bailey are giving up runs in bunches?

    I don't get it. I will never get it.
    If you look at the 5 games vs. the Giants I am kinda unclear on how you but the burden of loss on the pitching staff. IF our offense had done their job that series is over in 3 and we move on.

    Also overall you can't look at performance in ST for much in my opinon because it is not a true gage of performance level, and lastly how can you compare Chapman to those you listed. He is a 1 pitch pitcher with his 2nd pitch being very questionable. Some day his talent level may be close to those HOF, but right now he isn't even in their talent level in any way.

  14. #41
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    Re: Chapman will close

    Quote Originally Posted by HDBoy View Post
    And it turned out that team still did not quite have the starting pitching depth necessary to make it out of the playoffs and into the World Series. Just this afternoon, that same pitching staff, led by Home Bailey, is getting shellacked by the Mariners in a 16-hit, 16-run outing, just a week before the season opener. Over the weekend, two other starters, Latos and Arroyo, apparently escaped serious injury when they each were hammered by hard-hit comebackers to the mound.

    The Reds starting pitchers are skating on thin, late-winter ice with inadequate depth. After a few days of reflection, I still have a very bad feeling about the decision to keep Chapman in the bullpen. This fireballing Cuban is one the most exciting and overpowering pitchers to come along in years, and the Reds are relegating him to the bullpen. This guy has Bob Feller, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson and Nolan Ryan-like stuff. And he's in the bullpen while Mike Leake and Bailey are giving up runs in bunches?

    I don't get it. I will never get it.
    How many teams have quality ML level starters in their system. Right now I would say for short term use we have 2-3 guys in the pen who could start and 2 in AAA who could spart start. I doubt many teams have that level.

  15. #42
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    Re: Chapman will close

    Chapman has the potential to be the second coming of Randy Johnson. And if so it would have made the Reds truly dominant. Now we will never know what might have been.

  16. #43
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    Re: Chapman will close

    Quote Originally Posted by HDBoy View Post
    As I write this, another Dodger just homered against the hapless Mike Leake and another followed with a double. Today's decision naming Leake as the fifth Reds starting pitcher casts dark clouds of futility over a promising team before the 2013 season has even started. When Chapman was being considered as a starter, an unmistakable feeling of hope was in the Spring air, and it was helping erase the bad memories of the Reds' epic playoffs stumble last fall.

    The Reds have just two quality starters, and a third who MAY be coming into his own. But they now also have two starters who lose neary 50% of their games. Arroyo is a capable, but aging journeyman who everyone hopes has another year or two in him. But Leake leaves fans with a sense of hopelessness before every pitching appearance, even as opposing batters approach the stadium with a gleam in their eyes.

    In a twisted way, keeping Chapman in the bullpen indicates that Manager Dusty Baker doesn't have complete faith in his own starting rotation, and of course, he shouldn't. Chances are that Leake will continue to give up runs in groups early in most of his starts (like today) and force the Reds to come from behind game after game after game. He is a head case on the road to mediocrity and the Reds should have banished him to the minor leagues the day he was caught stealing two years ago.

    And what if something happens to Cueto again, or to Latos or Bailey? It will be a hopeless playoffs scenario all over again, that's what, with no prospective ace ready to step forward.

    The Reds need four reliable, young starters, not just three. Clearly, Aroldis Chapman could become a dominating ace. You don't win a pennant this way. In Cincinnati, the hopes of spring just died.
    whilst i dont agree with the moving of Chapman back to closer.

    Reds have more then 2 quality starters, Latos and Cueto are obviously the best two.

    Homer really came on last year and youre being harsh on Arroyo calling him a journeyman. He has been at least a middle of the rotation stater for 10 years.

    He has a career WAR of 24.0 that points to more then a journeyman.

    A journeyman is a player that bounces around teams whilst never providing a little more then replacement value.

  17. #44
    Have Faith In Dusty DGullett35's Avatar
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    Re: Chapman will close

    Chapman has one and a half pitches. The best fastball in the game and a sometimes decent slider. That had to play somewhat of a factor. I know he was working on more pitches this spring but hes still mostly a fastball guy. look at all the guys teams have had to make decisions on either being closer or starter(Joba, Sale, CJ Wilson ect,) and a big part of that is that the team and the player have to be 100% on the same page. Chapman commented that hed do whatever the team wanted him to do but that hed rather close. That was the first red flag in him starting. I seem to be in the minority here but I think as of right now in this 2013 season Chapman needs to be anchoring the pen and blowing guys away. On days hes able to pitch each game has the potential to be only an 8 inning game. Other than the Braves and Yankees and maybe the Rays with Rodney no other teams can really say that. I trust Jocketty and Baker(yea I just said that) to make the right decision.
    "Losing feels worse than winning feels good." -Vin Scully

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    Re: Chapman will close

    Quote Originally Posted by DGullett35 View Post
    Chapman has one and a half pitches. The best fastball in the game and a sometimes decent slider. That had to play somewhat of a factor. I know he was working on more pitches this spring but hes still mostly a fastball guy. look at all the guys teams have had to make decisions on either being closer or starter(Joba, Sale, CJ Wilson ect,) and a big part of that is that the team and the player have to be 100% on the same page. Chapman commented that hed do whatever the team wanted him to do but that hed rather close. That was the first red flag in him starting. I seem to be in the minority here but I think as of right now in this 2013 season Chapman needs to be anchoring the pen and blowing guys away. On days hes able to pitch each game has the potential to be only an 8 inning game. Other than the Braves and Yankees and maybe the Rays with Rodney no other teams can really say that. I trust Jocketty and Baker(yea I just said that) to make the right decision.
    All of this, plus the fact that Leake is more than capable as a #5 starter.
    Perfectly OK with Chapman closing.


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