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Thread: Chapman to bullpen now official

  1. #31
    Member cincrazy's Avatar
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    Re: With Chapman now officially back in the bullpen

    Keep in mind, most teams didn't want to sign Aroldis, period. The Yankees and Red Sox among others backed off because of his personality. The Reds took a tremendous risk with this signing. And so far it's been a coup. They deserve credit for that, not to be raked through the coals over a hypothetical.

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  3. #32
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    Re: With Chapman now officially back in the bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    AAA has multiple options, including two good prospects and several "veteran" types who could fill in for a shorter term injury.
    Oh yeah, Corcino aka "Mini-Cueto" and Cigrani is an option too. I just don't like that our "best" pitcher is gonna be used in the bullpen.

  4. #33
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    Re: With Chapman now officially back in the bullpen

    Starting pitching is, in every facet, exponentially more valuable than bullpen pitching. Bullpen arms result from failed starters.

    Aroldis was never really given a chance to fail as a starter. That's my problem with everything that's happened since the day he inked his contract with Cincinnati.
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  6. #34
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    Re: With Chapman now officially back in the bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by cincrazy View Post
    Do we really know for sure that Chapman is built mentally and physically to pitch 200 plus innings per year plus postseason? Honestly, his secondary pitches just aren't good or consistent. And by the time he would possibly figure it out, he'd be a free agent and ready to bolt. I know I'm in the minority here, but I'm fine with this decision. I have much less confidence in his ability to turn into an ace than most people on this board.
    I want him in the rotation, but every point you bring up is valid. Someone had a stat up awhile back saying he threw something like 85% fastballs? How is that going to hold up by the 5th inning? Also The Reds are going for a title in 2013. I want nothing to do with a Strasburg esque innings limit that prevents him from pitching in October.

    On a brighter note- I think the Reds have the best bullpen in the NL


    Does this change Hoover's uniform on opening day?
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  7. #35
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    Re: With Chapman now officially back in the bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by thatcoolguy_22 View Post
    I want him in the rotation, but every point you bring up is valid. Someone had a stat up awhile back saying he threw something like 85% fastballs? How is that going to hold up by the 5th inning? Also The Reds are going for a title in 2013. I want nothing to do with a Strasburg esque innings limit that prevents him from pitching in October.

    On a brighter note- I think the Reds have the best bullpen in the NL


    Does this change Hoover's uniform on opening day?
    He throws so many fastballs BECAUSE he's a bullpen arm. It's like saying a football team passes too much during a 2 minute-drill. The situation dictates pitch choice, therefore Chapman sets up with a fastball and finishes with a slider.

    Has everyone forgotten he was a starter growing up? It's not like this was a radical change, he just hasn't gotten the opportunity in MLB-level.

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  9. #36
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    Re: With Chapman now officially back in the bullpen

    By the way, I view Porcello as a younger, cheaper (for now) Kyle Lohse.

    I'd gladly just sign Lohse to a one year deal if we didn't have to forfeit a pick (so I'd wait until after the draft). But if Lohse signs elsewhere, I'd trade a reliever or two for Porcello. Then trade Leake for prospects.

    Or just package Chapman for Stanton.
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  10. #37
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    Re: With Chapman now officially back in the bullpen

    Duhsty wins.
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  11. #38
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    Re: With Chapman now officially back in the bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by Trajinous View Post
    He throws so many fastballs BECAUSE he's a bullpen arm. It's like saying a football team passes too much during a 2 minute-drill. The situation dictates pitch choice, therefore Chapman sets up with a fastball and finishes with a slider.

    Has everyone forgotten he was a starter growing up? It's not like this was a radical change, he just hasn't gotten the opportunity in MLB-level.
    You're right. Cuba is the majors. They have millions of dollars invested in video and scouting. I don't doubt that he can pitch in the rotation, I'm just tired of everyone saying we just put Verlander in the bullpen talk.
    "Last week I helped my friend stay put. It's a lot easier'n helpin' 'em move. I just went over to his house and made sure that he did not start to load **** into a truck."

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  13. #39
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: With Chapman now officially back in the bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    The Reds went from having question marks in their rotation as well as bullpen to having one of the best pen's in the league and having a damn good rotation.

    This is a win now move. Personally I applaud the organization for making win now moves instead of constantly looking two years down the road.
    I really don't understand this assertion that the Reds had question marks in their pen.

    With Chapman, the Reds bullpen had the NL's best ERA (2.65) and 2nd best FIP (3.26).

    Removing Chapman, the Reds bullpen had a 2.88 ERA and a 3.59 ERA. Those would have been good for 3rd and 4th in the NL respectively. Absent Chapman, we had one of the best bullpen's in the NL last year -- measured by actual runs or skills.

    Now, we wouldn't have been replacing Chapman with replacement level performance. He have been replaced by, essentially, 30-40 more innings from each Broxton and Hoover.

    Yes, without a doubt the bullpen is stronger with Chapman than without him. But the potential upgrade from Leake (or Arroyo if he falls apart again) to Chapaman is significantly greater than the downgrade from Chapman to his bullpen replacements. The Reds bullpen was, is and will be a strength of this team regardless of where Chapman spends his time this year.

    If you don't believe that, please feel free to play around in my "projection machine" and test your assumptions.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...0E&usp=sharing

    Given the Reds odd fascination with Logan Ondrusek, putting Chapman back to the pen probably costs Hoover a spot. While the upgrade in the rotation may have very well been smaller than many of us hope, the upgrade in the pen is not nearly as big as people make it out to be.

    I'm holding out hope that they're announcing the Kris Medlan plan.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 03-21-2013 at 12:44 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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  15. #40
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    Re: With Chapman now officially back in the bullpen

    ctrent @ctrent
    Dusty says there's no Chapman decision yet...

  16. #41
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: With Chapman now officially back in the bullpen

    I think beni needs to be shown the definition of "official."
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  17. #42
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    Re: With Chapman now officially back in the bullpen

    If Lohse signs with Cincinnati, I love this hypothetical move, as it makes both pen and rotation among the best in the league.

    If they move Chapman back to the pen for Leake, I think it's a meh move. Chapman makes the pen the best in the league and Leake's very good as a fifth starter, but Chapman's upside could have made him a true TOR guy. A meh move at best.

    On another note, how about a three-way blockbuster?

    Detroit deals Rick Porcello to Colorado, along with reliever Al Alburquerque, and prospects OF Avisail Garcia and IF/OF Nick Castellanos.
    Cincinnati deals Chapman and SS Cozart to Detroit, along with Ondrusek to Colorado.
    Colorado deals Troy Tulowitski to Cincinnati, along with $30 million

    Reds have their number two hitter for the next decade or so. As a SS.

    Choo CF
    Tulo SS
    Votto 1B
    Ludwick LF
    Bruce RF
    Phillips 3B
    Frazier 3B
    Mesigan C

    That lineup has no holes at all and each position (aside from LF) could very well have an All Star berth. That'd mean no re-signing of Choo and perhaps they'd also lose one of the starters, but, with Stephenson, Hamilton, Corcino, Cingrani, and others on the horizon, that would be a gamble I'd take, personally.
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  19. #43
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    Re: With Chapman now officially back in the bullpen

    I like the move as long as Dusty rotates Broxton and Chapman back and forth at Closer and doesn't do things strictly by the book.

    What if the Reds have a lead, but it's the 7th or 8th inning and the opposing team has men on base with a quality lefthand bat coming to the plate, say Utley? Why not bring in Chapman to try and punch him out and get out of the inning?

    We already have a strong starting rotation. I like having a strong bullpen too.

    I never get the "Chapman is making $30M to be a Closer". Makes no sense. That's the total of his contract. Not a one year payment. Geez. We paid Cordero $12M per season. Broxton making $7M per season. I mean, Chapman's only averages out to like $4 or $5M per season.

    I also don't get the comments saying "he's our best pitcher". HUH? In short stints maybe. I think Cueto, Latos, and Bailey might disagree with you.

    And back to the bullpen. What if someone gets hurt? Better to have depth than trade some of it away. If the season doesn't go the way we think it will, there's a rash of injuries........you can always wheel and deal at the deadline.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

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  21. #44
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    Re: With Chapman now officially back in the bullpen

    I trust the Reds with almost everything besides Chapman. Every single year they say they will do 1 thing then change to another. I never fully trusted them this time either. I guess the pressure got to them because it seems like most were against. Sad day but now we can move on.

  22. #45
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: With Chapman now officially back in the bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    If Lohse signs with Cincinnati, I love this hypothetical move, as it makes both pen and rotation among the best in the league.

    If they move Chapman back to the pen for Leake, I think it's a meh move. Chapman makes the pen the best in the league and Leake's very good as a fifth starter, but Chapman's upside could have made him a true TOR guy. A meh move at best.

    On another note, how about a three-way blockbuster?

    Detroit deals Rick Porcello to Colorado, along with reliever Al Alburquerque, and prospects OF Avisail Garcia and IF/OF Nick Castellanos.
    Cincinnati deals Chapman and SS Cozart to Detroit, along with Ondrusek to Colorado.
    Colorado deals Troy Tulowitski to Cincinnati, along with $30 million

    Reds have their number two hitter for the next decade or so. As a SS.

    Choo CF
    Tulo SS
    Votto 1B
    Ludwick LF
    Bruce RF
    Phillips 3B
    Frazier 3B
    Mesigan C

    That lineup has no holes at all and each position (aside from LF) could very well have an All Star berth. That'd mean no re-signing of Choo and perhaps they'd also lose one of the starters, but, with Stephenson, Hamilton, Corcino, Cingrani, and others on the horizon, that would be a gamble I'd take, personally.
    Is $30M what is owed to Tulowitzki?

    I like the trade in theory, but I also recognize the Reds are tapped out. The only players Walt is going to trade for at this point are guys like Latos that are under control for awhile. The Reds still have guys on the horizon who are due some serious money. I don't see them adding a big contract.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread


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