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Thread: 11 Pitchers???

  1. #1
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    11 Pitchers???

    Lots of threads about the bullpen, but this will probably be another one. Now that the Chapman decision is made, I really don't see a need for 12 pitchers on this roster. Latos, Cueto and Bailey fronting the rotation, Arroyo eating innings and Leake with the gloves off as the 5th starter. Chapman, Broxton, Marshall and Hoover forming a shutdown pen with Lecure in a utility pitcher role and Parra as a loogy and I just don't see a need for anyone else. It would be real nice to have a pen with no soft underbelly. Deal off Arredondo, Ondrusek and Simon and that $4 Million that the Reds are paying Broxton is basically offset and everyone can stop wringing their hands over it until the off-season.

    Ludwick needs rest and Choo is looking like a guy who may need some time off as well. Adding an extra OF/bench bat would seem to be a better use of a roster spot than a 12th man who really should never get to pitch given the quality of the others. If the Reds need an arm, there are plenty of guys stashed at AAA who can fill the "12th man who never pitches except in a blow-out or an emergency" role (and Masset may be ready down the road).

    Short of a plane crashing into the pen and taking half these guys out, I can't really see when Ondrusek, Arredondo or Simon would ever get the ball. I think they'll have trouble getting enough work for Lecure as is.
    Last edited by mth123; 03-23-2013 at 01:09 PM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

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    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: 11 Pitchers???

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Lots of threads about the bullpen, but this will probably be another one. Now that the Chapman decision is made, I really don't see a need for 12 pitchers on this roster. Latos, Cueto and Bailey fronting the rotation, Arroyo eating innings and Leake with the gloves off as the 5th starter. Chapman, Broxton, Marshall and Hoover forming a shutdown pen with Lecure in a utility pitcher role and Parra as a loogy and I just don't see a need for anyone else. It would be real nice to have a pen with no soft underbelly. Deal off Arredondo, Ondrusek and Simon and that $4 Million that the Reds are paying Broxton is basically offset and everyone can stop wringing their hands over it until the off-season.

    Ludwick needs rest and Choo is looking like a guy who may need some time off as well. Adding an extra OF/bench bat would seem to be a better use of a roster spot than a 12th man who really should never get to pitch given the quality of the others. If the Reds need an arm, there are plenty of guys stashed at AAA who can fill the "12th man who never pitches except in a blow-out or an emergency" role (and Masset may be ready down the road).

    Short of a plane crashing into the pen and taking half these guys out, I can't really see when Ondrusek, Arredondo or Simon would ever get the ball. I think they'll have trouble getting enough work for Lecure as is.
    I think it could be done. But a couple of poor starts/extra inning games in a row (which is gonna happen several times a year) and you'd end up shuttling guys to and from Louisville. If the roster rules (I wouldn't want to be burning options or having players needing to clear waivers...is that even a concern?) and travel time would allow it, I'd be on board, but I think the stars would need to be plenty aligned for it to work. I'd just play it safe and go with 12.

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    Re: 11 Pitchers???

    This comes up every year. Reds need 12 pitchers IMO. Even with a good pitching staff.

    To me, you need four guys who can pitch the late innings. The 7th, 8th and 9th inning guys need rest. There has to be one additional guy for that slot, I would say Hoover on the Reds.

    Then you need some depth and versatility for the middle innings, including somebody who can function as a long man. I think two guys is skimpy for those slots, I'd want three.

    One or two bad games by starters and you'll be really in trouble with a six man pen IMO.

    I'd keep 12.
    Last edited by Kc61; 03-23-2013 at 01:25 PM.

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    RadfordVA (03-23-2013)

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    Re: 11 Pitchers???

    I would have liked 11 as well....but this season they are cramming a lot of games into April.

    I have said this many times....develop relievers who can pitch multiple innings on an every other day basis, not saying that you will have to use them like that all the time.....but it gives you more flexibility and it helps your bench.

    I really don't know how 6 relievers....OK 5 if you take out the closer....along with the 5th starter who could relieve, if you are smart and skip his start when you have an off day...is not enough.

    Either that or just expand rosters to 26. I really do not know how teams get by with just a 4 man bench anyways. And one of them is the backup catcher.

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    REDREAD (03-23-2013)

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: 11 Pitchers???

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger View Post

    Either that or just expand rosters to 26. I really do not know how teams get by with just a 4 man bench anyways. And one of them is the backup catcher.
    That is how "jack of all trades, master of none" guys have 15 year careers. They allow you to have a short bench because they are "just good enough" at a bunch of things.

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    Re: 11 Pitchers???

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    That is how "jack of all trades, master of none" guys have 15 year careers. They allow you to have a short bench because they are "just good enough" at a bunch of things.
    And usually hitting is not one of them. Less Chris Stynes and Lenny Harrises...more like a bunch of Luis Quinones and Juan Castros on your bench. Smokey Burgess would never be on someone's bench....I am surprised that Gimabi is actually able to get a spot on the Rockies bench for the last few years....and they need about 14 pitchers on their staff.

    It is a small ball mangers dream to have all these little super subs running around that can bunt and field.

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    Re: 11 Pitchers???

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger View Post
    I would have liked 11 as well....but this season they are cramming a lot of games into April.

    I have said this many times....develop relievers who can pitch multiple innings on an every other day basis, not saying that you will have to use them like that all the time.....but it gives you more flexibility and it helps your bench.

    I really don't know how 6 relievers....OK 5 if you take out the closer....along with the 5th starter who could relieve, if you are smart and skip his start when you have an off day...is not enough.

    Either that or just expand rosters to 26. I really do not know how teams get by with just a 4 man bench anyways. And one of them is the backup catcher.
    Bench is five guys. Five starters, seven relievers, eight starting players, five bench players.

    Reds don't tend to skip the fifth starter very much, if at all. I guess they feel you get some additional rest for all starters that way.

    In the old days, teams had a longer bench and fewer pitchers. That was the day of complete games by starting pitchers. Today they seem to want to have extra pitchers and a shorter bench.

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    Re: 11 Pitchers???

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    Bench is five guys. Five starters, seven relievers, eight starting players, five bench players.

    Reds don't tend to skip the fifth starter very much, if at all. I guess they feel you get some additional rest for all starters that way.

    In the old days, teams had a longer bench and fewer pitchers. That was the day of complete games by starting pitchers. Today they seem to want to have extra pitchers and a shorter bench.

    I am familiar with them olden days. Been watching games since 1974.

    Even if you threw out half of the CG being thrown in the 70's...or early 80's...it is the middle reliever role that has made the need for more pitchers.

    Remember when the Reds had Sullivan, Graves and Belinda? This was just 13 years ago. Those guys could go 2 innings in middle relief almost 1 out of 2-3 days. They were generally pretty good at it too. Belinda ...I know was more mop up guy than MR....but he still saved the pen innings for other pitchers.

    That is what is needed to be developed in the minors. Not guys who's stat line at the end of the year is 75 games and 70 innings pitched. I understand the LOOGY concept and need....but it's like they've all become borderline LOOGYS and ROOGYS.

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    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: 11 Pitchers???

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    This comes up every year. Reds need 12 pitchers IMO. Even with a good pitching staff.

    To me, you need four guys who can pitch the late innings. The 7th, 8th and 9th inning guys need rest. There has to be one additional guy for that slot, I would say Hoover on the Reds.

    Then you need some depth and versatility for the middle innings, including somebody who can function as a long man. I think two guys is skimpy for those slots, I'd want three.

    One or two bad games by starters and you'll be really in trouble with a six man pen IMO.

    I'd keep 12.
    In past years I agreed with 12, but this season they should get 1025 to 1050 innings or so from the rotation and 350 from Chapman, Broxton, Marshall, Hoover and Lecure. That leaves around 60 to 80 innings for Parra, September call-ups and the occassional stretch where they expand to 12. I think there will be stretches where they need 12, but the way this team is set-up, I think the basic blueprint of 11 should be enough. I see that 12th guy having 2 and 3 week stretches without getting in a game.

    If one of the starters goes south or goes down for an extended period, they would need to go to 12, but until that happens, I think they'll need the extra position guy to cover for Ludwick and Choo more than they'll need a 12th guy who is such a clear step down from the other 11 on the staff. A guy like that will just never get the ball.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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    Re: 11 Pitchers???

    I pine for the days of a 10 man pitching staff. It's embarrassing that most relievers can only go one inning. Most teams used to have multiple pitchers who could go 2-3 on a regular basis.

    It's not like there are so many more quality pitchers to choose from these days. The Reds, with a very strong pen, are choosing between Ondrusek, Simon, Hensley, Parra and Arredondo for the last few spots. None of them really need to be on the MLB roster, pitching MLB innings.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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    Re: 11 Pitchers???

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Lots of threads about the bullpen, but this will probably be another one. Now that the Chapman decision is made, I really don't see a need for 12 pitchers on this roster. Latos, Cueto and Bailey fronting the rotation, Arroyo eating innings and Leake with the gloves off as the 5th starter. Chapman, Broxton, Marshall and Hoover forming a shutdown pen with Lecure in a utility pitcher role and Parra as a loogy and I just don't see a need for anyone else. It would be real nice to have a pen with no soft underbelly. Deal off Arredondo, Ondrusek and Simon and that $4 Million that the Reds are paying Broxton is basically offset and everyone can stop wringing their hands over it until the off-season.
    .
    While I doubt that the Reds will go with 11 pitchers, there is zero chance that they will deal whatever depth they have behind whomever makes the team.

    Just looking for trouble if you think we can get by this season with 11 pitchers.

  15. #12
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: 11 Pitchers???

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    While I doubt that the Reds will go with 11 pitchers, there is zero chance that they will deal whatever depth they have behind whomever makes the team.

    Just looking for trouble if you think we can get by this season with 11 pitchers.
    Where we differ is our opinion of those depth guys. To me Ondrusek, Arredondo and Simon are no better than Hensley, a recovering Masset. Galarragga and the like. I'd expect an ERA number over 5 for Simon and Ondrusek. Arredondo is a little better, but not much IMO. Cingrani is the depth IMO. Corcino is depth.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  16. #13
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: 11 Pitchers???

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Where we differ is our opinion of those depth guys. To me Ondrusek, Arredondo and Simon are no better than Hensley, a recovering Masset. Galarragga and the like. I'd expect an ERA number over 5 for Simon and Ondrusek. Arredondo is a little better, but not much IMO. Cingrani is the depth IMO. Corcino is depth.
    I agree that Ondrusek, Arredondo and Simon are the worst bullpenners on the staff (I'm sure everyone does). Although I would probably put Parra on that list too.

    I think that's another reason the Reds want bullpen depth.. I'm not sure what they are going to actually do with these guys. but I guess they want to wait until the last possible minute to see who looks the best.

    I do think it's nice to have a guy like Simon last year, who can be used to mopup and keep the other guys fresh.

    Since managers like to use a pitcher for just one batter now, it's almost impossible to not go with 12 pitchers.
    I also wish they'd expand the rosters to 26 or 27.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

  17. #14
    malingered here too long malcontent's Avatar
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    Re: 11 Pitchers???

    Ondrusek certainly doesn't get much love from RedsZone.

    I'm predicting a stellar year from him. Another good one from Simon, too.

    I'd move Arredondo, myself. Parra was off today and I'm wondering if he makes the cut with the way Hoover has been pitching.

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    Re: 11 Pitchers???

    ondrusek doesn't get love for a reason.


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