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Thread: Votto shushing the crowd?

  1. #61
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    Re: Votto shushing the crowd?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Are those elbows to the face on purpose? If so, then yes, they are assault.
    Bill Laimbeer be in jail for life if they were
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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  3. #62
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    Re: Votto shushing the crowd?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSJ55 View Post
    "Fun" and showboating in order to draw attention to yourself while disrespecting another player are two different things.

    WLF is pretty much on. Leave that garbage to the NBA and NFL. It has no place in baseball.
    No, purposefully throwing at a player has no place in baseball. You don't someone to showboat or anything else to "draw attention to themselves or disrespect the other player", then get them out with your skills. It is like the bully on the playground. I don't like what you just said, so I am going to punch you now. Why is that ok in sports?

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    Re: Votto shushing the crowd?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Bill Laimbeer be in jail for life if they were
    No, just for a few hours until he posted bail, once. Because after that, he wouldn't throw any more elbows.

  5. #64
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    Re: Votto shushing the crowd?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Are those elbows to the face on purpose? If so, then yes, they are assault.
    But here is the thing Doug. In the context in athletic event, who is to say if an act is intentional? Unless a player fesses up, it's pretty much impossible to prove. So in the context of the athletic arena I think it's fruitless to use that term. Things are what they are, and unless the league starts dropping the hammer, nothing will change. Using the term "assault" just seems to flare the debate up.

    But again, I think we were talking about brushbacks and things got ramped up to assault. You never did answer my 2 part question whether or not brushbacks/pitching inside leading to HBP are assault.

    Side note - I've had some good discussions with you/amongst others the past few days. My disagreeing/asking for follow ups in no way signifies a lack of respect. It's been good.

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  7. #65
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    Re: Votto shushing the crowd?

    Doug is technically correct.

    Any purposeful physical harm against another individual is assault. That's what the word "assault" actually means.

    Problem is, he's failing to contextualize. If the literal meaning of "assault" were applied to sports, we'd all be forced to watch badminton or something. Forget about boxing or MMA. Football would be played with flags...Heck, soccer would be more unwatchable than it already is.

    These guys know what they're getting into when they take the field. Some level of physical harm is implied, and sometimes it gets taken to the extreme. Let the governing bodies of each sport handle it. I would hate to see Nolan Ryan thrown in jail for beating the tar out of Robin Ventura.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

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    Re: Votto shushing the crowd?

    By the way, if we start charging pitchers with assault for throwing at a guy, let's just pack up the whole sport and call it a day. If a guy shows up a pitcher and gets plunked later, that's just part of the game. I guarantee he won't do it next time he faces the guy.

  10. #67
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    Re: Votto shushing the crowd?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    But here is the thing Doug. In the context in athletic event, who is to say if an act is intentional? Unless a player fesses up, it's pretty much impossible to prove. So in the context of the athletic arena I think it's fruitless to use that term. Things are what they are, and unless the league starts dropping the hammer, nothing will change. Using the term "assault" just seems to flare the debate up.

    But again, I think we were talking about brushbacks and things got ramped up to assault. You never did answer my 2 part question whether or not brushbacks/pitching inside leading to HBP are assault.

    Side note - I've had some good discussions with you/amongst others the past few days. My disagreeing/asking for follow ups in no way signifies a lack of respect. It's been good.
    You beat me to the punch.
    "We know we're better than this, but we can't prove it." - Tony Gwynn

  11. #68
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    Re: Votto shushing the crowd?

    Quote Originally Posted by wheels View Post
    Doug is technically correct.

    Any purposeful physical harm against another individual is assault. That's what the word "assault" actually means.

    Problem is, he's failing to contextualize. If the literal meaning of "assault" were applied to sports, we'd all be forced to watch badminton or something. Forget about boxing or MMA. Football would be played with flags...Heck, soccer would be more unwatchable than it already is.

    These guys know what they're getting into when they take the field. Some level of physical harm is implied, and sometimes it gets taken to the extreme. Let the governing bodies of each sport handle it. I would hate to see Nolan Ryan thrown in jail for beating the tar out of Robin Ventura.
    That is absolutely correct.

    I'm just more of a "here's what we know", "here's what we can do about it" type of guy.

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    Re: Votto shushing the crowd?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No, purposefully throwing at a player has no place in baseball. You don't someone to showboat or anything else to "draw attention to themselves or disrespect the other player", then get them out with your skills. It is like the bully on the playground. I don't like what you just said, so I am going to punch you now. Why is that ok in sports?
    You must watch a different bit of baseball than I do. I see more "purpose pitches" than "showboating" in the games I watch. I also often hear players condone "showboating" while saying "purpose pitches" are part of the game.

    My question would be "Why not?" It's "OK", because it's sports.
    Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted.

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  13. #70
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    Re: Votto shushing the crowd?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    But here is the thing Doug. In the context in athletic event, who is to say if an act is intentional? Unless a player fesses up, it's pretty much impossible to prove. So in the context of the athletic arena I think it's fruitless to use that term. Things are what they are, and unless the league starts dropping the hammer, nothing will change. Using the term "assault" just seems to flare the debate up.

    But again, I think we were talking about brushbacks and things got ramped up to assault. You never did answer my 2 part question whether or not brushbacks/pitching inside leading to HBP are assault.

    Side note - I've had some good discussions with you/amongst others the past few days. My disagreeing/asking for follow ups in no way signifies a lack of respect. It's been good.
    My feeling is the league needs to really start dropping the hammer on it all. In basketball, you can tell real elbows from "I am rotating my body" elbows. Keep them tucked, not at 90 degree angles.

    With baseball, there shouldn't be a "brushback" pitch excuse. Brushback implies I want him to move. what if he doesn't? You threw the ball right where he was standing. What if you miss your location by 6-8 inches, which guys do all of the time? You just hit him whether he could move or not. Bothers me that it is acceptable. I get that sometimes a pitch gets away, and like I said, that is why it is tough to enforce without someone coming out like Cole Hamels did with Bryce Harper. But we all know that guys do indeed throw at hitters. They shouldn't be.

  14. #71
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    Re: Votto shushing the crowd?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    My feeling is the league needs to really start dropping the hammer on it all. In basketball, you can tell real elbows from "I am rotating my body" elbows. Keep them tucked, not at 90 degree angles.

    With baseball, there shouldn't be a "brushback" pitch excuse. Brushback implies I want him to move. what if he doesn't? You threw the ball right where he was standing. What if you miss your location by 6-8 inches, which guys do all of the time? You just hit him whether he could move or not. Bothers me that it is acceptable. I get that sometimes a pitch gets away, and like I said, that is why it is tough to enforce without someone coming out like Cole Hamels did with Bryce Harper. But we all know that guys do indeed throw at hitters. They shouldn't be.
    But like a mentioned earlier, a pitcher throwing a brushback and a "pitcher pitching inside" are probably often aiming for the same spot. So what are we to do? Very tough to enforce.

  15. #72
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    Re: Votto shushing the crowd?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSJ55 View Post
    You must watch a different bit of baseball than I do. I see more "purpose pitches" than "showboating" in the games I watch. I also often hear players condone "showboating" while saying "purpose pitches" are part of the game.

    My question would be "Why not?" It's "OK", because it's sports.
    We are watching the same game. If one guy gets hit a season because he is showboating, it is one time to often.

    NFL players think they should be able to tackle with their helmets, hit a quarterback in the head, lay out defenseless receivers, crack back hit anyone on the field.... but they aren't allowed to because it isn't safe. Allowing players to throw 90MPH pitches at another isn't safe. It shouldn't be allowed. As for why not, I have told you ten times already. It isn't safe. You can hurt someone with it and you are doing it on purpose.

  16. #73
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    Re: Votto shushing the crowd?

    For purposes of the discussion, I believe a brushback pitch should not hit a batter if the batter does not move. Not sure that is correct but that is what my argument is based on.

  17. #74
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    Re: Votto shushing the crowd?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    We are watching the same game. If one guy gets hit a season because he is showboating, it is one time to often.
    If one guy gets hit this season for showboating, he is showboating at least once too often.
    Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted.

    All the dishes rattle in the cupboards when the elephants arrive

  18. #75
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    Re: Votto shushing the crowd?

    What does it say about players who showboat, when it is common knowledge that showboating leads to being thrown at (or your teammates being thrown at). Hate to say it but I see guys on the Reds do it and I shake my head. (For all purposes, everyone seemed to be yucking it up at Votto/Darvish so that seemed all good)

    I don't care to get into the discussion whether it should be acceptable for players to showboat without fear of retaliation...I really don't care one way or the other. But to showboat, knowing what we know.....ugh. And I imagine the players for the most part know what will be tolerated...walkoff bounces seem to be ok, etc.


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