outside the box strategy from last night...

[bigfunguy]

I get everybody is second guessing whether Chapman shoulda been in earlier...but I had a thought on the PHILLIES approach.

AFTER they tied it in the 8th, Arroyo was due up FIRST. CLEARLY, the Reds will hit for him. However, the Phils had just used Utley to bat for Lee, so they're sending in a new pitcher...they did, the lefty Horst---and then the Reds send up righty Robinson to face him who starts the ralley....

If you are the Phillies, WHY send Horst out there first?? Crazy as it may seem---I'd send Utley to the mound. If the Reds wanna let Arroyo bat off of him, more power to em. I'd bet Utley can throw it down the middle...or, even if he cant, and you dont wanna let Utley throw to a pitcher (I'd understand that) it's worth the bluff and doesnt cost you anything--if Arroyo comes to the plate, you just call time and yank the pitcher (I THINK you can do that since he was already in as a pinch hitter)....MORE LIKELY, the Reds go ahead and send up a true pinch hitter---Robinson or Paul or whoever, THEN you get to set up a rightly/lefty or at least make the Reds burn a player. Woulda been nothing to lose trying it.....am I right on the rule? If so, why not my approach??

[RedsMan3203]

Arroyo isn't your normal hitting pitcher either and has some pop in the bat...

And either way, the Reds would have known who was coming in from the pen since they are warming up unless the Phillies had both Lefty/Righty up and warming....

[Rock of Truth]

I think ... I am not certain ... but if he takes the mound, he then has to throw at least 1 pitch. The rule may state he has to throw for a full batter. If this was not the case, then send out the starter from the previous day, who is an actual pitcher. Wait to see who the pinch hitter is and react.

There was a game a few years ago where the Tampa Bay Rays were bringing in a reliever. He was not ready so they walked in another reliever who threw a few warm up pitches. Then made the switch. I cannot remember if they just pulled him or had to claim he had an injury. Either way, i think there is now a "madden rule" for what Joe Madden did.

[bigfunguy]

I think ... I am not certain ... but if he takes the mound, he then has to throw at least 1 pitch. If this was not the case, then send out the starter from the previous day, who is an actual pitcher. Wait to see who the pinch hitter is and react.

There was a game a few years ago where the Tampa Bay Rays were bringing in a reliever. He was not ready so they walked in another reliever who threw a few warm up pitches. Then made the switch. I cannot remember if they just pulled him or had to claim he had an injury. Either way, i think there is now a "madden rule" for what Joe Madden did.

You definitely have to pitch to a batter if you a re brought in fresh outta the pen...BUT Utley is already in the game having pinch hit. I think that's different.

[klw]

I get everybody is second guessing whether Chapman shoulda been in earlier...but I had a thought on the PHILLIES approach.

AFTER they tied it in the 8th, Arroyo was due up FIRST. CLEARLY, the Reds will hit for him. However, the Phils had just used Utley to bat for Lee, so they're sending in a new pitcher...they did, the lefty Horst---and then the Reds send up righty Robinson to face him who starts the ralley....

If you are the Phillies, WHY send Horst out there first?? Crazy as it may seem---I'd send Utley to the mound. If the Reds wanna let Arroyo bat off of him, more power to em. I'd bet Utley can throw it down the middle...or, even if he cant, and you dont wanna let Utley throw to a pitcher (I'd understand that) it's worth the bluff and doesnt cost you anything--if Arroyo comes to the plate, you just call time and yank the pitcher (I THINK you can do that since he was already in as a pinch hitter)....MORE LIKELY, the Reds go ahead and send up a true pinch hitter---Robinson or Paul or whoever, THEN you get to set up a rightly/lefty or at least make the Reds burn a player. Woulda been nothing to lose trying it.....am I right on the rule? If so, why not my approach??

Robinson is a switch hitter so the Phillies were not going to get a same arm pitcher no matter who they put on the mound.

[bigfunguy]

Robinson is a switch hitter so the Phillies were not going to get a same arm pitcher no matter who they put on the mound.

Fair point, but they dont know for sure its Robinson coming...coulda been Paul---and maybe Robinson is a better righty??? My point is, there's nothing but upside to the strategy (assuming legal) and I'd bet my paycheck they didn't even consider it.

[PuffyPig]

Utley would have had to face a full batter, so the strategy wouldn't work.

Plus Arroyo (batting) vs. Utley (pitching) would likely have been a good bet for us.

[Nasty_Boy]

I cannot think of any situation where using a position player to pitch would be better than using a bullpen arm, unless of course the position player is Wilson Valdez.

[DaytonFlyer]

They probably sent Horst out there to keep Paul and Hannahan, our 2 best PH, on the bench.

[bigfunguy]

Utley would have had to face a full batter, so the strategy wouldn't work.

Plus Arroyo vs. Utley would likely have been a good bet for us.

Are you sure?? He didnt come out of the pen---he was already in the game. I think they coulda sent him out and then pulled him after seeing who the batter was

[bigfunguy]

Appears open to interpretation...

3.05
(a) The pitcher named in the batting order handed the umpire-inchief, as provided in Rules 4.01 (a) and 4.01 (b), shall pitch to the first batter or any substitute batter until such batter is put out or reaches first base, unless the pitcher sustains injury or illness which, in the judgment of the umpire-in-chief, incapacitates him from pitching.
(b) If the pitcher is replaced, the substitute pitcher shall pitch to the batter then at bat, or any substitute batter, until such batter is put out or reaches first base, or until the offensive team is put out, unless the substitute pitcher sustains injury or illness which, in the umpire-in-chief’s judgment, incapacitates him for further play as a pitcher.

[Captain13]

Appears open to interpretation...

3.05
(a) The pitcher named in the batting order handed the umpire-inchief, as provided in Rules 4.01 (a) and 4.01 (b), shall pitch to the first batter or any substitute batter until such batter is put out or reaches first base, unless the pitcher sustains injury or illness which, in the judgment of the umpire-in-chief, incapacitates him from pitching.
(b) If the pitcher is replaced, the substitute pitcher shall pitch to the batter then at bat, or any substitute batter, until such batter is put out or reaches first base, or until the offensive team is put out, unless the substitute pitcher sustains injury or illness which, in the umpire-in-chief’s judgment, incapacitates him for further play as a pitcher.

Doesn't appear to be open to interpretation. If you take the mound you must face a batter.

[bigfunguy]

Doesn't appear to be open to interpretation. If you take the mound you must face a batter.

He wasn't replaced with a batter at bat...BUT, assume that's the case. We can all agree that if a pinch hitter is sent up, you can make a change (youll often see where a starter is taken out at hte beginning of an inning when a pinch hitter is sent up). How about this...send Halliday, Hamels or some other starter you wont really use to the mound. If Arroyo comes up, they pitch to him. But that wont happen--they'll send up a pinch hitter, then you replace the starter with relieve of choice to set up the best match up

[PuffyPig]

He wasn't replaced with a batter at bat...BUT, assume that's the case. We can all agree that if a pinch hitter is sent up, you can make a change (youll often see where a starter is taken out at hte beginning of an inning when a pinch hitter is sent up). How about this...send Halliday, Hamels or some other starter you wont really use to the mound. If Arroyo comes up, they pitch to him. But that wont happen--they'll send up a pinch hitter, then you replace the starter with relieve of choice to set up the best match up

If Hamels or whomever takes the mound they have to face one batter. Once a pitcher takes a mound (who hasn't faced a batter previously) he has to face one batter.

Just becuase a PH comes up doesn't mean you can make a change if the pitcher out there hasn't faced a batter.

[RED VAN HOT]

Interesting discussion. I suspect that the interpretation of the rule would be that if the pinch hitter takes the mound, then he is considered to be the pitcher entering the game and must then face at least one batter. I don't know the rule regarding the point at which the new pitcher must be announced to the umpire, but I suspect that it is before the opposing batter is announced.