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Thread: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

  1. #61
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    It is about both sides of the ball. Corky Miller is 16 years into his minor league career because both sides matter. Mike Piazza caught for a very long time because both sides matter.
    Corky Miller is not Ryan Hanigan behind the plate. Corky is a journeyman catch who can't hit. Hannigan is an elite catcher- in the same class with Jerry Grote and Joe Gerardi when it comes to handling a pitching staff and running a game. Sure offense is nice, but when it comes to winning, how you handle things behind the plate is what counts. Hannigan is special, whether he his .280 or .230.

    PS. Mike Piazzi was a great hitter who happened to catch. Behind the plate, you can't mention him in the same sentence with Hanigan. In any event, Mesoraco is not Piazza when it comes to hitting a ball so there's no decision to be made there.
    Last edited by Mutaman; 03-28-2013 at 01:50 PM.

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  4. #62
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    One question- Homer really moved forward once Hanigan started catching him last year. Coincidence? Might Homer insist that Hanigan catch him and if so, where does that leave Mes in terms of playing time?

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  6. #63
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutaman View Post
    Once again, catching is not about offense. Watch Hannigan catch for about 5 minutes and you'll understand what I mean.
    I've watched Hanigan catch for years. I saw Johnny Bench catch too. Want to take a guess why Bench is in the HOF and Jim Sundberg isn't? Because they both played amazing defense.

    You and I and everybody else knows that eventually Mes is taking this job (provided he plays well). He needed to shore up some of his defense behind the plate. Supposedly he's spent all winter working on that and it's looking good. And he needed to get his bat going. In ST it's going and if that continues into the season then there's not going to be much of an argument against playing a big hitting, solid fielding catcher.
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  7. #64
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutaman View Post
    One question- Homer really moved forward once Hanigan started catching him last year. Coincidence? Might Homer insist that Hanigan catch him and if so, where does that leave Mes in terms of playing time?
    Sigh.

    Homer Bailey pitched outstanding with Mesoraco behind the plate for him. Far better than he had ever pitched before. On July 25th, Homer Bailey had 3.53 ERA. His ERA on July 25th in his other seasons? 3.67 in 2011, in less than 50% as many innings, 5.51 in 2010, 6.87 in 2009, 6.52 in 2008 and 6.99 in 2007.

    From July 31-the end of August, he slumped and posted an ERA of 7.01. That can't be put on a catcher. That is on him.

    Then, like every September in his career, Homer Bailey turned into an ACE.

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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    I've watched Hanigan catch for years. I saw Johnny Bench catch too. Want to take a guess why Bench is in the HOF and Jim Sundberg isn't? Because they both played amazing defense.

    You and I and everybody else knows that eventually Mes is taking this job (provided he plays well). He needed to shore up some of his defense behind the plate. Supposedly he's spent all winter working on that and it's looking good. And he needed to get his bat going. In ST it's going and if that continues into the season then there's not going to be much of an argument against playing a big hitting, solid fielding catcher.
    1. Bench is in his own class.
    2. Don't know anything about Jim Sunberg but the media will never reward great catchers except maybe for Fisk. How many HOF votes did Grote ever get?
    3. Catching is about a lot more than solid defense and its not something you "work on" during the winter.
    4. As long as Ryan is healthy he will catch everytime Arroyo, Cueto, and Latos pitch, no matter how well Mes is hitting.

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  10. #66
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutaman View Post
    Corky Miller is not Ryan Hanigan behind the plate. Corky is a journeyman catch who can't hit. Hannigan is an elite catcher- in the same class with Jerry Grote and Joe Gerardi when it comes to handling a pitching staff and running a game. Sure offense is nice, but when it comes to winning, how you handle things behind the plate is what counts. Hannigan is special, whether he his .280 or .230.

    PS. Mike Piazzi was a great hitter who happened to catch. Behind the plate, you can't mention him in the same sentence with Hanigan. In any event, Mesoraco is not Piazza when it comes to hitting a ball so there's no decision to be made there.
    I am not saying Mesoraco is Piazza, but good hitters who can not embarrass themselves behind the plate play back there because it is a big advantage.

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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Sigh.

    Homer Bailey pitched outstanding with Mesoraco behind the plate for him. Far better than he had ever pitched before. On July 25th, Homer Bailey had 3.53 ERA. His ERA on July 25th in his other seasons? 3.67 in 2011, in less than 50% as many innings, 5.51 in 2010, 6.87 in 2009, 6.52 in 2008 and 6.99 in 2007.

    From July 31-the end of August, he slumped and posted an ERA of 7.01. That can't be put on a catcher. That is on him.

    Then, like every September in his career, Homer Bailey turned into an ACE.
    You going to believe me or your darn statistics? Maybe I was influenced by the no-no and the gem in the playoffs. Does anybody know Homers specific stats last year with Mes vs Hannigan?

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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutaman View Post
    You going to believe me or your darn statistics? Maybe I was influenced by the no-no and the gem in the playoffs. Does anybody know Homers specific stats last year with Mes vs Hannigan?
    3.20 ERA with Hanigan, 3.90 with Mesoraco.

    But again, means very little in my opinion because Hanigan got to catch Bailey in September and every single year, Bailey dominates in September and up until the last two years, has flat out sucked the rest of the year.

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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutaman View Post
    1. Bench is in his own class.
    2. Don't know anything about Jim Sunberg but the media will never reward great catchers except maybe for Fisk. How many HOF votes did Grote ever get?
    3. Catching is about a lot more than solid defense and its not something you "work on" during the winter.
    4. As long as Ryan is healthy he will catch everytime Arroyo, Cueto, and Latos pitch, no matter how well Mes is hitting.
    1. Bench is in his own class because he did it with the stick too. It's not all about the glove.
    2. Sundberg was every bit as good as Bench behind the plate, way better than Grote or Fisk.
    3. It's not a magical ability and rest assured Ryan Hanigan over the years has done plenty of winter reps on his footwork, release and receiving, and watched tons of tape to improve his game handling. Mes is now doing the same.
    4. He won't be catching all those games if Mes is whacking the ball.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    As with any position, it is about the overall package. You take the whole ballplayer, what he brings to the table offensively and defensively, and measure him up against other competitors for the position.

    If a guy is a stud offensively and can't play the position at all, they find him a position. If a guy can't hit but is outstanding defensively, he better find a team with lots of everyday sticks to play on (e.g.Brad Ausmus last time the Astros were any good).

    I don't think it is ever wise in this game to say "for this position, I want the best defensive guy you can run out there." Then you get Ray Oyler playing shortstop for you. Who wants that?

    The guy with a plus bat who can play average defense is going to get the nod over an average bat that plays plus defense, or even outstanding defense, at least smart teams will play it that way. There may be some teams that can absorb the weaker bat in favor of defense, but it always begs the question as to how much the d compensates for the weaker bat.
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  16. #71
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutaman View Post
    You going to believe me or your darn statistics? Maybe I was influenced by the no-no and the gem in the playoffs. Does anybody know Homers specific stats last year with Mes vs Hannigan?
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...2012&t=p#catch

    Better with Hanigan, but solid with Mes. And it's nearly impossible to draw any conclusions from that sample size.
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    but good hitters who can not embarrass themselves behind the plate play back there because it is a big advantage.
    But that's not how you win championships. Example: In 1996, Joe Torre, one of the greatest offensive catchers who ever lived, was hired to manage the Yankees. At that time the Yankees had a catcher named Mike Stanley who was a big time 30 HR a year guy. But Torre insisted the Yankees not resign Stanley and instead get Joe Girardi who couldn't hit his way out of a paper bag. Why? 3 rings in the next 4 years. Torre knew catching was about so much more than being able to hit.

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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    I don't think there is any argument that Mes has the bat power, but I've never considered the catching position as being an "offensive" position (I'm sure there are many here who may disagree with me though). The pitching staff and defense was very strong with Hanigan behind the plate last season. I want to see the same with Mes back there before I give him the job because of his bat.

    Great catchers, IMO, are the ones who are masters of their craft when behind the plate. A great bat is just icing on the cake.
    Great teams get offensive production from "defensive" positions. You don't develop a great offense merely by having the corner players hit.

    The BRM is an example. Getting Morgan/Bench production out of second base and catcher gave them an extra lineup boost. Big time, as Dusty might say.

    If Mesoraco becomes an .800 OPS (or more) hitter it will dramatically boost this team.

    Not to say that every middle infielder and catcher needs to hit. But if some do, those teams can be special.

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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    I don't think it is ever wise in this game to say "for this position, I want the best defensive guy you can run out there." Then you get Ray Oyler playing shortstop for you. Who wants that?
    I doubt anyone believes in this philosophy, at least I don't. I think Hanigan's bat is strong enough that he isn't a black hole in the lineup. Heck, some here wanted him batting second last season.

    I have nothing against Mes and I agree with those who say he is the future, but I'm just not ready to anoint him as the main catcher and dismissing what Hanigan still brings to the table. I just don't believe he is there yet. ST has been a big plus for him, but it's still just ST. He'll get his opportunities and I hope he takes advantage of them. It'll be a good "problem" to have.

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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutaman View Post
    But that's not how you win championships. Example: In 1996, Joe Torre, one of the greatest offensive catchers who ever lived, was hired to manage the Yankees. At that time the Yankees had a catcher named Mike Stanley who was a big time 30 HR a year guy. But Torre insisted the Yankees not resign Stanley and instead get Joe Girardi who couldn't hit his way out of a paper bag. Why? 3 rings in the next 4 years. Torre knew catching was about so much more than being able to hit.
    Mike Stanley was a horrible catcher. Not just bad, horrible. And Girardi lost his starting job to good hitting, modest fielding Jorge Posada in 1998 (and the Yankees went on to become a dynasty).
    Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong

    I'm witchcrafting everybody.

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    *BaseClogger* (03-28-2013)


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