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Thread: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

  1. #136
    Member jimbo's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverRat13 View Post
    But the "if it ain't broke" posts can be frustrating because while neither the catching situation nor the rotation is "broke", both could be improved upon and you have guys in-house with the potential to be that improvement.
    "Potential" does not always equate to results though. Right now, this team is considered to be one of the best in the game and the FO and manager feels that Hanigan gives the team the best option at catcher. Let's not lose sight of the fact that winning games is the top priority here. What is or isn't necessarily the best for an individual player is always going to take a back seat on a contending team.

    Mes's day will come. With this team though, it'll just take a little more time. Watching and learning from a guy like Hanigan is only going to help him in the long run.

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  3. #137
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Dusty said yesterday (during the radio pregame) that he didn't start against the Angels because of the Angels' running game, and he felt better about Hanigan discouraging that aspect of their game. Then last night, with Homer pitching, he wanted Hanigan in there because Homer and Hanigan have had some real success dating back to late last season. That takes us to today, when Mes is going to catch.

    All of that is exceedingly reasonable. Let's see how it plays out going forward. If the pattern continues, Mes should go to AAA to play. But let's not overreact to the first five games of the season ... again.

  4. #138
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post
    Dusty said yesterday (during the radio pregame) that he didn't start against the Angels because of the Angels' running game, and he felt better about Hanigan discouraging that aspect of their game. Then last night, with Homer pitching, he wanted Hanigan in there because Homer and Hanigan have had some real success dating back to late last season. That takes us to today, when Mes is going to catch.

    All of that is exceedingly reasonable. Let's see how it plays out going forward. If the pattern continues, Mes should go to AAA to play. But let's not overreact to the first five games of the season ... again.
    I haven't spoken up that much about things these first few games, so I know you aren't really talking to me...but I'm on record (as are many) that the most discouraging thing about last season was the handling of Mes. It seems to be continuing this season just the same, so I wouldn't say I or others like me are overreacting.

  5. #139
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverRat13 View Post
    Wanting to see a little more playing time for a guy who is a year removed from being considered a top-20 prospect in all of baseball is a phenomenon only experienced by Reds fans?
    Good post.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  6. #140
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Hanigan led the league in percentage of base-stealers caught, pitchers ERA and only had three passed balls last year. (Why didn't he win the gold glove?). He's a great mentor for Mez, who will get his shot at some point.
    "The players make the manager, it's never the other way." - Sparky Anderson

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  8. #141
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    I haven't spoken up that much about things these first few games, so I know you aren't really talking to me...but I'm on record (as are many) that the most discouraging thing about last season was the handling of Mes. It seems to be continuing this season just the same, so I wouldn't say I or others like me are overreacting.
    Mes got a shot last year and wasn't ready. That's not on Dusty. The organization rushed him. It will be interesting to see how they handle him this year.

    I would say any extreme reaction after five games is, by definition, an overrecation.

  9. #142
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post
    Dusty said yesterday (during the radio pregame) that he didn't start against the Angels because of the Angels' running game, and he felt better about Hanigan discouraging that aspect of their game. Then last night, with Homer pitching, he wanted Hanigan in there because Homer and Hanigan have had some real success dating back to late last season. That takes us to today, when Mes is going to catch.

    All of that is exceedingly reasonable. Let's see how it plays out going forward. If the pattern continues, Mes should go to AAA to play. But let's not overreact to the first five games of the season ... again.
    My problem with the Hanigan/Bailey this is that Bailey and Mesoraco were outstanding together last year too. Until August when Bailey went into a slump. Then Hanigan took over Bailey toward the end of the year, when Bailey is nails every single year. Somehow that means Hanigan made Bailey better.

  10. #143
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post
    Mes got a shot last year and wasn't ready. That's not on Dusty. The organization rushed him. It will be interesting to see how they handle him this year.

    I would say any extreme reaction after five games is, by definition, an overrecation.
    Did he? He had back to back starts twice in the first half of the season. He had 140 at bats heading into August. That is 35 at bats per month.

  11. #144
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    That is 35 at bats per month.
    If you play as poorly as he played last year, why should you get any more than that?

    Face it, doug-- Mesoraco laid a serious egg last season. That's not on Baker, the Reds, or anyone other than Mesoraco. Had he hit better (and fielded better) (and thrown the ball better), he'd have played more. Period.

    Everything else is excuse making. And hollow.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  13. #145
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    If you play as poorly as he played last year, why should you get any more than that?

    Face it, doug-- Mesoraco laid a serious egg last season. That's not on Baker, the Reds, or anyone other than Mesoraco. Had he hit better (and fielded better) (and thrown the ball better), he'd have played more. Period.

    Everything else is excuse making. And hollow.
    Lots of guys are going to lay an egg with the playing situation Mesoraco was dealt. No favorable match ups to your strengths. Sitting for days at a time without pinch hitting chances. We have had this conversation a thousand times, so I am just leaving it with that. I don't believe he was put in any kind of situation where most players could succeed as a hitter. I blame that as much on the manager as the player for not succeeding with what he was given.

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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    My problem with the Hanigan/Bailey this is that Bailey and Mesoraco were outstanding together last year too. Until August when Bailey went into a slump. Then Hanigan took over Bailey toward the end of the year, when Bailey is nails every single year. Somehow that means Hanigan made Bailey better.
    The Bailey/ Hanigan duo pitched to a 639 OPS. That's a 90 OPS+.

    The Bailey/ Mesoraco duo pitched to a .760 OPS. That's league average.

    In 300 or so IP, Hanigan and Bailey have teamed up for an 83 tOPS+ in their careers.

    Mesoraco and Bailey? 103.

    It's fairly evident that, when Hanigan is behind the plate, Bailey is better.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  16. #147
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    The Bailey/ Hanigan duo pitched to a 639 OPS. That's a 90 OPS+.

    The Bailey/ Mesoraco duo pitched to a .760 OPS. That's league average.

    In 300 or so IP, Hanigan and Bailey have teamed up for an 83 tOPS+ in their careers.

    Mesoraco and Bailey? 103.

    It's fairly evident that, when Hanigan is behind the plate, Bailey is better.
    Or it is fairly evident that Hanigan caught Homer Bailey in September, where his career ERA is 3.00 and in every other month it is well over 5.00.

    Homer has never been as good through July as he was last year. Then he had a bad 4 game stretch, with Mesoraco, that put his numbers down. You can blame that on Mesoraco I guess. But I don't know why you would since he seemed to do awfully well with him for the 20 starts before that.

    Bailey is good because he is good. He figured things out. He didn't pitch outstanding in the first half because of Mesoraco and he didn't pitch outstanding in the second half because of Hanigan. He pitched that way because he is outstanding.

  17. #148
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Lots of guys are going to lay an egg with the playing situation Mesoraco was dealt.
    If a guy can't do the job in limited ABs, why would you give him more? It doesn't matter what situations he was put in.

    And he was put in against some really bad pitching staffs. The most ABs he had were against the woeful Cub staff (28th in WAR in baseball). The result? He struggled. The Mets and Pirates were second and third in terms of appearances. Both rank in the bottom third of staffs in baseball. He sucked against them too.

    In fact, against teams that were .500 or worse, Mesoraco's numbers were beyond horrid: .198 .284 .297 .581.

    Can the meme that he wasn't given chances against bad teams/ staffs/ or that Baker somehow didn't give him a chance for success please die now?
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  18. #149
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Or it is fairly evident that Hanigan caught Homer Bailey in September, where his career ERA is 3.00 and in every other month it is well over 5.00.

    Homer has never been as good through July as he was last year. Then he had a bad 4 game stretch, with Mesoraco, that put his numbers down. You can blame that on Mesoraco I guess. But I don't know why you would since he seemed to do awfully well with him for the 20 starts before that.

    Bailey is good because he is good. He figured things out. He didn't pitch outstanding in the first half because of Mesoraco and he didn't pitch outstanding in the second half because of Hanigan. He pitched that way because he is outstanding.
    Numbers don't lie.

    Anecdotal evidence often does.

    Bailey is quite a bit better with Hanigan behind the dish than Mesoraco.

    If Bailey figured it out early in the year, as you suggest, why the slump? Why the jump in success rate with Hanigan, both last year and in his career?
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
    -- Leo Durocher

  19. #150
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Numbers do lie. It is about the context.

    The whole, it doesn't matter what situation he was put in line cracks me up. If Jay Bruce hit against left handers every at bat, you don't think that would matter? Or if Brandon Phillips only hit against right handers every game?

    As for the Bailey slump, I don't know why it happened, but to blame it on the catcher is insane. Just like saying Bailey was nails in September because of Hanigan is insane. Bailey kills it every September for whatever reason.

    I am done with this thread. I don't believe Mesoraco got a fair shake last year in how he was used and that most guys wouldn't have hit much in that scenario. I don't believe that the difference defensively between Hanigan/Mesoraco is much at all.


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