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Thread: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

  1. #166
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    The Reds are trying to win the World Series. If Mesoraco is better than Olivo, he should be up here.

    This isn't the 2000's Reds. We're trying to win.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

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  4. #167
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    There have been nearly 200 rookie catchers that have debuted since 2000. Mesoraco ranks 68th on the list in terms of PAs. That's the top third.

    Those around (within 15 or so PAs) and below him include:
    AJ Ellis
    Hank Conger
    Michael McHenry
    Ryan Lavarnway
    Dioner Navarro
    Brian McCann
    Carlos Santana
    Matthew LeCroy
    Salvador Perez
    Yadier Molina
    Jason LaRue
    Paul LoDuca

    The idea that he didn't get enough ABs is simply incorrect.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  5. #168
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    Maybe they thought that Mesoraco was their best option as backup catcher. Isn't it the goal to put your best players on the roster?

    Mes is not going to be hindered by playing behind Hanigan for a few seasons. As has been mentioned, you should have to earn it.
    I'm glad that you are sure that Mesoraco is not going to be hindered. It can't be both ways. Some people are suggesting that Mesoraco "sucked" last season at the plate, and not because of limited AB's. A lot of rookies, and young players are not really suited and do not thrive in back up rolls. If playing behind Hannigan hinders the development of a young player with much potential and that player does not produce in a "backup" role, are you really accomplishing anything positive? Putting the best players on the roster does not necessarily mean the "best" players. If a player is ill suited or cannot adapt and perform in a role, it doesn't do the team or that player much good. Would rather see him in AAA than sitting 4 out of 5 days.
    Last edited by RANDY IN INDY; 04-06-2013 at 03:56 PM.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
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  6. #169
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    There have been nearly 200 rookie catchers that have debuted since 2000. Mesoraco ranks 68th on the list in terms of PAs. That's the top third.

    Those around (within 15 or so PAs) and below him include:
    AJ Ellis
    Hank Conger
    Michael McHenry
    Ryan Lavarnway
    Dioner Navarro
    Brian McCann
    Carlos Santana
    Matthew LeCroy
    Salvador Perez
    Yadier Molina
    Jason LaRue
    Paul LoDuca

    The idea that he didn't get enough ABs is simply incorrect.
    Sorry, but that post proves absolutely nothing.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  7. #170
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Of all the catchers who've debuted over the course of a dozen years, Mesoraco garnered more playing time than most, despite producing among the worst. This should show that Baker and the Reds didn't, as many have insisted, do much differently than any other team in the game.

    His playing time, as discussed above, was primarily against the dregs of the league, so Baker tried to spot start him to take advantage of matchups/ bad pitchers.

    In other words, the only two bullets in the gun of those pushing the "Mesoraco was screwed" meme are blanks.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  8. #171
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Carlos Santana came up on June 11th his rookie year. He started 46 games before going to the DL on August 3rd. He is on your list. His season isn't close to what Mesoraco did. He started almost every day, but came up mid season and then got hurt.

    Brian McCann came up June 10th his rookie year. He started 49 games the rest of the season (out of 100).

    I didn't look beyond that, but neither of those seasons are close to the season Mesoraco had in terms of playing time.

  9. #172
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post

    His playing time, as discussed above, was primarily against the dregs of the league, so Baker tried to spot start him to take advantage of matchups/ bad pitchers.
    This is hilarious.

    Mesoraco faced whoever Bailey/Leake were pitching against. Baker didn't spot start him. Not once all season did he spot start Mesoraco to take advantage of the opposing pitcher. Did you even watch last season?

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  11. #173
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    I'm glad that you are sure that Mesoraco is not going to be hindered. It can't be both ways. Some people are suggesting that Mesoraco "sucked" last season at the plate, and not because of limited AB's. A lot of rookies, and young players are not really suited and do not thrive in back up rolls. If playing behind Hannigan hinders the development of a young player with much potential and that player does not produce in a "backup" role, are you really accomplishing anything positive? Putting the best players on the roster does not necessarily mean the "best" players. If a player is ill suited or cannot adapt and perform in a role, it doesn't do the team or that player much good.
    I agree that he sucked last season in his role, which is why Navarro was brought up late in the season and finished the season replacing Mes. I don't think it had anything to do with the number of AB's he got, but rather he just wasn't major league ready and as the season progressed they decided to go another route. This is another season and Navarro isn't around, and it was decided that Mes is the second best catcher in the organization and is on the roster as a backup, given another opportunity. He may never be entirely suited as a role player, but he is still their best option.

    And while I cannot be completely sure his development isn't being hindered, I don't believe these guys need to be treated with kid gloves. Mes is a professional baseball player and if playing behind Hanigan for a few seasons is "hindering" his development, then he probably has bigger problems.

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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Lots of guys are going to lay an egg with the playing situation Mesoraco was dealt. No favorable match ups to your strengths. Sitting for days at a time without pinch hitting chances. We have had this conversation a thousand times, so I am just leaving it with that. I don't believe he was put in any kind of situation where most players could succeed as a hitter. I blame that as much on the manager as the player for not succeeding with what he was given.
    This is the big leagues. It's about winning games, not about player development.

    If only we had a system where a young player could get plenty of playing time and work on his skills in a low-pressure environment where development is more important than wins or losses. Oh, wait ...

  13. #175
    Member jimbo's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Carlos Santana came up on June 11th his rookie year. He started 46 games before going to the DL on August 3rd. He is on your list. His season isn't close to what Mesoraco did. He started almost every day, but came up mid season and then got hurt.

    Brian McCann came up June 10th his rookie year. He started 49 games the rest of the season (out of 100).

    I didn't look beyond that, but neither of those seasons are close to the season Mesoraco had in terms of playing time.
    You have to look a little deeper though. McCann was competing against 37 year old Eddie Perez, who retired after the season, and Johnny Estrada. The Indians decided to go with Santana because their team sucked and they went the route of a youth movement.

    The Reds current situation is entirely a different animal.

  14. #176
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    The Reds are trying to win the World Series. If Mesoraco is better than Olivo, he should be up here.

    This isn't the 2000's Reds. We're trying to win.
    I really don't understand why this is so conveniently dismissed. I can't comprehend why so many people want so badly to remove a very productive player from the starting lineup.

    It's like everyone forgot it's not 2000-2009 anymore, and we are more than a major league farm team again.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

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  16. #177
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    You have to look a little deeper though. McCann was competing against 37 year old Eddie Perez, who retired after the season, and Johnny Estrada. The Indians decided to go with Santana because their team sucked and they went the route of a youth movement.

    The Reds current situation is entirely a different animal.
    Which is fine. But don't try to say that Santana and McCann are comparable seasons for Mesoraco. They weren't.

  17. #178
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    I really don't understand why this is so conveniently dismissed. I can't comprehend why so many people want so badly to remove a very productive player from the starting lineup.

    It's like everyone forgot it's not 2000-2009 anymore, and we are more than a major league farm team again.
    Because Mesoraco is young and was/is a highly rated prospect.

    Literally the only reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  18. #179
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    This is hilarious.

    Mesoraco faced whoever Bailey/Leake were pitching against. Baker didn't spot start him. Not once all season did he spot start Mesoraco to take advantage of the opposing pitcher. Did you even watch last season?
    If so, he obviously wasn't paying attention.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  19. #180
    Member Wonderful Monds's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Because Mesoraco is young and was/is a highly rated prospect.

    Literally the only reason.
    Yeah. Would've been a good reason in 2005, though.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.


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