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Thread: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

  1. #181
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Of all the catchers who've debuted over the course of a dozen years, Mesoraco garnered more playing time than most, despite producing among the worst. This should show that Baker and the Reds didn't, as many have insisted, do much differently than any other team in the game.

    His playing time, as discussed above, was primarily against the dregs of the league, so Baker tried to spot start him to take advantage of matchups/ bad pitchers.

    In other words, the only two bullets in the gun of those pushing the "Mesoraco was screwed" meme are blanks.

    I haven't had much time to dig into this debate but if there is one thing that mes did not do last year, it was spot start.....his job was directly related to catching 2 pitchers and that was it, nothing more or nothing less......spot starting was not in dusty bakers arsenal when considering mes.

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  3. #182
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Mesoraco should not be lumped into the "all catchers" group.

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    RANDY IN INDY (04-06-2013)

  5. #183
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds View Post
    I really don't understand why this is so conveniently dismissed. I can't comprehend why so many people want so badly to remove a very productive player from the starting lineup.

    It's like everyone forgot it's not 2000-2009 anymore, and we are more than a major league farm team again.
    That's fine. Bring in a backup catcher and keep developing your young, talented prospect in AAA. Keep him ready and getting every day AB's in case of an injury.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
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    Conceit is self given: be careful.

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  6. #184
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    This is hilarious.

    Mesoraco faced whoever Bailey/Leake were pitching against. Baker didn't spot start him. Not once all season did he spot start Mesoraco to take advantage of the opposing pitcher. Did you even watch last season?
    I did.

    Did you?

    He played against bad pitching staffs. He sucked against them. How is that not taking advantage of good matchup opportunities? Would you rather face the Cardinals or the Cubs? Well, Mesoraco played more against the lowly Cubs and other bad teams than he did good teams. Bad teams have bad pitchers. Mesoraco put up a .581 OPS against bad teams.

    He sucked. As a result of sucking, he didn't receive more playing time. (In fact, he received less.) In the middle of winning the pennant, the Reds saw fit to send him to AAA (for whatever reason) and call up Navarro. However, that doesn't mean he was given less time than other rookie catchers. His PAs were in line with other rookie catchers in their first extended time in the majors.

    So, to sum up:

    1) Was Mesoraco given an unfairly low number of ABs based on the history of how managers and teams deal with catching prospects, thereby harming his development? Not at all. His ABs on the season are commensurate with (and higher than most) catching rookies.

    2) Was Mesoraco's development harmed because he was unduly expected to produce against difficult or better than league average hurlers? Again, not at all. His ABs on the season show that he actually played against poor teams more often than good teams and that his production against those poor teams was even worse than his below replacement level overall production.

    In short, the Reds/ Dusty can't be blamed for Mesoraco's sucking.
    Last edited by Scrap Irony; 04-06-2013 at 05:03 PM.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  7. #185
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Mesoraco should not be lumped into the "all catchers" group.
    Why not?

    Because of his supposed pedigree?

    Please.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  8. #186
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    I think the mishandling of Mesoraco was in late 2011. The season was toast and it was obvious that Ramon's days were numbered. The team should have dealt Ramon for whatever junk they could have gotten and given Mes about 6 weeks with 80% of the PT. He would have gotten his extended look and had several times through the rotation to work with the pitchers and gain some rapport with them.

    Last season, the Reds were trying to win and prepare for a post-season run. Not the time to develop and not the time to play a guy who was seemingly a lesser player. The situation that has Mes stuck as a back-up catcher was formed in 2011 IMO. I don't have a problem with how he was used last season. It could have been different though with some reps in a lost season in late 2011.

    Late 2011 was also the time for Chapman to get a look as a starter for about 10 starts as the season wound won.

    It doesn't look like the Reds will have a lost season for a while now, so picking spots for unprovens to break in is tougher. Nice problem to have.
    Last edited by mth123; 04-06-2013 at 05:01 PM.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

  9. #187
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Why not?

    Because of his supposed pedigree?

    Please.
    Yes because of his status as the best or second best catching prospect in the game.

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    RANDY IN INDY (04-06-2013)

  11. #188
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    I did.

    Did you?

    He played against bad pitching staffs. He sucked against them. How is that not taking advantage of good matchup opportunities? Would you rather face the Cardinals or the Cubs? Well, Mesoraco played more against the lowly Cubs and other bad teams than he did good teams. Bad teams have bad pitchers. Mesoraco put up a .581 OPS against bad teams.

    He sucked. As a result of sucking, he didn't receive more playing time. (In fact, he received less.) In the middle of winning the pennant, the Reds saw fit to send him to AAA (for whatever reason) and call up Navarro. However, that doesn't mean he was given less time than other rookie catchers. His PAs were in line with other rookie catchers in their first extended time in the majors.

    So, to sum up:

    1) Was Mesoraco given an unfairly low number of ABs based on the history of how managers and teams deal with catching prospects, thereby harming his development? Not at all. His ABs on the season are commensurate with (and higher than most) catching rookies.

    2) Was Mesoraco's development harmed because he was unduly expected to produce against difficult or better than league average hurlers? Again, not at all. His ABs on the season show that he actually played against poor teams more often than good teams and that his production against those poor teams was even worse than his below replacement level overall production.

    In short, the Reds/ Dusty can't be blamed for Mesoraco's sucking.
    It was by pure chance that Mesoraco played against "bad teams" because he never one caught Latos, Arroyo or Cueto beyond mid-April.

    Comparing his full season to just season total at bat numbers of other catchers ignores that most of those guys probably weren't with their team for 145 games, as I already showed, but you chose to ignore that and claim "other guys" also got the same number of at bats as Mesoraco in their rookie seasons. Sure. In a lot less time on the roster because they spent the earlier part of the year playing every day in the minor leagues, not sitting on the bench.

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    kaldaniels (04-06-2013), RANDY IN INDY (04-06-2013)

  13. #189
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    It was by pure chance that Mesoraco played against "bad teams" because he never one caught Latos, Arroyo or Cueto beyond mid-April.

    Comparing his full season to just season total at bat numbers of other catchers ignores that most of those guys probably weren't with their team for 145 games, as I already showed, but you chose to ignore that and claim "other guys" also got the same number of at bats as Mesoraco in their rookie seasons. Sure. In a lot less time on the roster because they spent the earlier part of the year playing every day in the minor leagues, not sitting on the bench.
    I'm glad you took the time to parse those figures Doug. I can't help it but I enjoy seeing when a poster gets his hand caught in the cookie jar. It would be one thing if he used some tact when posting that, but he went with the "you are incorrect" line.

    I know Mes didn't help himself out last year, but this is not how you map out the career of a top catching prospect in the game.

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    RANDY IN INDY (04-06-2013)

  15. #190
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    It was by pure chance that Mesoraco played against "bad teams" because he never one caught Latos, Arroyo or Cueto beyond mid-April.

    Comparing his full season to just season total at bat numbers of other catchers ignores that most of those guys probably weren't with their team for 145 games, as I already showed, but you chose to ignore that and claim "other guys" also got the same number of at bats as Mesoraco in their rookie seasons. Sure. In a lot less time on the roster because they spent the earlier part of the year playing every day in the minor leagues, not sitting on the bench.
    Yeah, doug, I would agree. That would seem to be somewhat important and conveniently left out to support his argument. Kinda makes you say, hmmmm. Just another reason why pure numbers don't tell the whole story. Guess thinking you won the argument is more important than seeing the whole picture.

    The assertion that Mesoraco only played against "bad teams" is weak at best.
    Last edited by RANDY IN INDY; 04-06-2013 at 06:17 PM.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

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  16. #191
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    I think Mesoraco is about to break out at the plate. I'm not skilled enough to determine if he's good at calling a game. Honestly, I doubt many here are. But, he looks good in terms of throwing and catching.

    Today in his last two at bats he hit the ball hard, and had a good approach.

    In his last at bat in the 10th he came within about 4 feet of winning the game with a walkoff home run. The thing is when he hit it I thought it was just a popup. He didn't really get extended, but he still hit it to the wall in center. That is the kind of power he has.

    If he played everyday, my guess is he would hit 20 home runs this year.

  17. #192
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    I think the mishandling of Mesoraco was in late 2011. The season was toast and it was obvious that Ramon's days were numbered. The team should have dealt Ramon for whatever junk they could have gotten and given Mes about 6 weeks with 80% of the PT. He would have gotten his extended look and had several times through the rotation to work with the pitchers and gain some rapport with them.
    Nah, I'm glad the Reds didn't deal Hernandez then. They got Jesse Winker because of it. That's a lot better than whatever PTBNL/Junk two months of Hernandez would've brought back at the time.
    Go BLUE!!!

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    REDREAD (04-09-2013)

  19. #193
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    That's fine. Bring in a backup catcher and keep developing your young, talented prospect in AAA. Keep him ready and getting every day AB's in case of an injury.
    No, put the 25 men on the roster that best helps you win right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

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  21. #194
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Well, we will see how they use him and how he responds.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

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  22. #195
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Don't worry, if he fails we already have the Dusty mis used him excuse built in.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.


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