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Thread: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

  1. #196
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Don't worry, if he fails we already have the Dusty mis used him excuse built in.
    You know, it's really not about that, for me. I would just like to see what the kid could do with some at bats that are strung together for a while. He looked good behind the plate today, and his stick has so much more potential than Hannigan's. Probably the only way we will see any at bats strung together this season is if there is an injury, which is not what anybody wants to see.

    And by the way, I like Dusty.
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  3. #197
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    It was by pure chance that Mesoraco played against "bad teams" because he never one caught Latos, Arroyo or Cueto beyond mid-April.
    It doesn't matter if it was by chance or not-- the fact is that he failed against bad teams/ bad pitching. Baker couldn't have provided a better alternative, in that he gave Mesoraco ample ABs against those bad teams/ bad pitching staffs. His OPS was 581.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Comparing his full season to just season total at bat numbers of other catchers ignores that most of those guys probably weren't with their team for 145 games, as I already showed, but you chose to ignore that and claim "other guys" also got the same number of at bats as Mesoraco in their rookie seasons. Sure. In a lot less time on the roster because they spent the earlier part of the year playing every day in the minor leagues, not sitting on the bench.
    You looked at two guys. That's it. I frankly didn't want (or think it was necessary to research) a decade plus of manager usage with rookie catchers. I went the easy route.

    However, because many posters believe doug somehow made a point, I'm willing to do the legwork now, if only to show the work and prove my point. I'm going all the way back to 1990 for the first BA list because, hey, that's how I roll. Top two catchers on the list unless those catchers are on multiple lists. Then we'll move on to the next guy.

    We're looking for playing time from BA's game logs, which detail the date played. I'm ignoring September numbers in favor of the first "real" playing time. Anyone working 3/5 or more of a starter's role is considered full-time.

    The List, then:

    1990: Sandy Alomar and Todd Zeile played all year as full-time catchers.
    1991: Ivan Rodriguez played all season, but Tyler Houston did not.
    1992: Todd Hundley caught about two-thirds of the games for the Mets. Dave Nilsson came up in early May and played in just about the same number of games as did Mesoraco.
    1993: Javy Lopez played early, got benched in mid-season, then the strike. Brook Fordyce was used less than Mesoraco.
    1994: Lopez was already discussed. Mike Piazza played all year.
    1995: Charles Johnson played about half the season, one DL stint, the rest split duties. Raul Casanova was used much like Mesoraco when he was in the majors.
    1996: Ben Davis came up in mid-June and played the rest of the year. Jason Kendall played most of the year.
    1997: Eli Marrero was used just like Mesoraco until Zeile was dealt. He was then used every day. Ben Petrick was used less than Mesoraco early, got sent down, then came back up to play much more when the Rocks were out of it.
    1998: Cesar King never made it out of the minors. Marrero, we've already discussed. AJ Hinch and Ramon Hernandez split the ABs in Oakland. Hinch was given April and part of May as a fulltime starter, then played less than Mesoraco the rest of the way as Hernandez came on in June.
    1999: Angel Pena played in the middle of the season, but not at all the rest of the way. He had less ABs than Mesoraco. Mitch Melusky played part-time in April, then was sent to the minors when he struggled. The next year, he played most the season.
    2000: Matthew LeCroy played about half the season as a part-time starter, then was sent down because of his bat. Jason Werth was used less than Mesoraco as a catcher, then made to switch positions.
    2001: JR House was used less than Mesoraco. Brandon Inge, when he was in the majors, was used almost exactly like Mesoraco.
    2002: Joe Mauer played the full season as a starter. John Buck played half the season and was a 3/5 starter.
    2003: Victor Martinez played about half the season due to injuries and ineffectiveness, but was a 3/5 starter when he was in the league. Jeff Mathis was played much like Mesoraco in April and early May, then sent to the minors for regular work. He reappeared in September.
    2004: Guillermo Quiroz was played less than Mesoraco in his first "full" season. Dioner Navarro came up in late July and played full time.
    2005: Brian McCann was played like Mesoraco from his call-up in June through early August, when he took over full time. Russell Martin was full time.
    2006: Jarrod Salalamacchia was played just like Mesoraco until he was dealt to Texas. Jeff Clement was played just like Mesoraco.
    2007: Miguel Montero was played just like Mesoraco. Chris Iannetta was as well.
    2008: Matt Wieters was a full-time starter. So, too, was Geovany Soto.
    2009: Buster Posey and Carlos Santana were full-time starters.
    2010: Derek Norris started about half the games as a catcher after his callup in late June. Jesus Montero caught less games than Mesoraco but played in many more, due to the AL DH.

    Overall, then, you're looking at about an even split among the best catching prospects in baseball between those that played more (and more consistently) than Mesoraco in their first full year and those that didn't. (I ignored the prospects that never made it to the majors.)
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    I'm glad you took the time to parse those figures Doug. I can't help it but I enjoy seeing when a poster gets his hand caught in the cookie jar. It would be one thing if he used some tact when posting that, but he went with the "you are incorrect" line.

    I know Mes didn't help himself out last year, but this is not how you map out the career of a top catching prospect in the game.
    As seen in the research above, that's not really true. But, hey, let's all insult each other and feel better about ourselves, shall we?

    Yay.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    Yeah, doug, I would agree. That would seem to be somewhat important and conveniently left out to support his argument. Kinda makes you say, hmmmm. Just another reason why pure numbers don't tell the whole story. Guess thinking you won the argument is more important than seeing the whole picture.

    The assertion that Mesoraco only played against "bad teams" is weak at best.
    That's obviously not my assertion.

    However, Mesoraco played more against bad teams that good ones. The claim that Baker didn't coddle him enough by playing him against poor pitchers to boost his confidence is the argument that is nebulous here.

    As to the argument, why not actually do the research rather than tell us all who the winners and losers are?
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    That's obviously not my assertion.

    However, Mesoraco played more against bad teams that good ones. The claim that Baker didn't coddle him enough by playing him against poor pitchers to boost his confidence is the argument that is nebulous here.

    As to the argument, why not actually do the research rather than tell us all who the winners and losers are?
    The truth is, he didn't play regularly enough against any teams to string any stretch of at bats together all season. Your research has been faulty at best in this thread, adding (165 is not 200) and ignoring (factors like other catchers stringing together at bats in the minors before being called up) things to serve your purpose. You are excellent at framing arguments by leaving out some things and creatively embellishing and rounding others. If Mesoraco sucked, as you said, that kind of thing sucks more. Way more.
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  7. #201
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by RANDY IN INDY View Post
    The truth is, he didn't play regularly enough against any teams to string any stretch of at bats together all season. Your research has been faulty at best in this thread, adding (165 is not 200) and ignoring (factors like other catchers stringing together at bats in the minors before being called up) things to serve your purpose. You are excellent at framing arguments by leaving out some things and creatively embellishing and rounding others. If Mesoraco sucked, as you said, that kind of thing sucks more. Way more.
    Mesoraco had 184 major league PAs last season and 19 more in AAA. That's just more than 200 total PAs.

    I ignore nothing though I freely admit I might make mistakes. (An example of that, obviously, is the spot starting remark. I assumed spot starting meant not being a full-time starter. However, after reading the posts following mine, I understood that it meant starting in specific games against bad pitchers. Mind you, it makes no difference as to doug's argument-- and apparently yours as well-- that Mesoraco wasn't given extra help as a rookie.) If you'd like to make that claim, then do the research to back it up. Otherwise, all you're doing is stirring the pot and making noise.

    I round because the game isn't perfect and doesn't give exact numbers all the time. Again, if you'd like to be more precise, knock yourself out-- let's see it.
    Last edited by Scrap Irony; 04-06-2013 at 09:45 PM.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  8. #202
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Scrap, do you have an OPS number in mind where you would want to see Mes get more playing time? What does Mes have to do to "earn" his chance?
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  9. #203
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    I audited one name off your new list Scrap.

    Brandon Inge.

    In 2001 he did not play well. He started 19 games in April. 16 in May. 7 thru June 24 during June. I don't have the info in front of me but it looks like he was stinking up the joint and got sent to the minors (maybe an injury in there too?), only to come back in Sept.

    He then started 17 game in Sept.

    I don't see how you can equate his treatment to what we have seen with Devin.

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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Scrap, do you have an OPS number in mind where you would want to see Mes get more playing time? What does Mes have to do to "earn" his chance?
    No, not really, Raisor. I don't have a number. Of course, I'm not the manager.

    I'd argue that he needs to hit quite a bit better than Hanigan because I believe Hanigan is a much, much better defensive player. If I had to pick a number out of my hat, I'd say that a 725-750 OPS would likely be enough to garner more playing time. This assumes, of course, that Hanigan hits as he did last season.

    The most important part of the equation for me is that Mesoraco improve his skills behind the plate and in the SB department. He was horrid last season.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  11. #205
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Scrap, do you have an OPS number in mind where you would want to see Mes get more playing time? What does Mes have to do to "earn" his chance?
    Hitting that ball another 2 ft higher today would have been a start.

  12. #206
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    I audited one name off your new list Scrap.

    Brandon Inge.

    In 2001 he did not play well. He started 19 games in April. 16 in May. 7 thru June 24 during June. I don't have the info in front of me but it looks like he was stinking up the joint and got sent to the minors (maybe an injury in there too?), only to come back in Sept.

    He then started 17 game in Sept.

    I don't see how you can equate his treatment to what we have seen with Devin.
    Look at Inge's numbers a bit closer. In April, he only played one inning once. In May, he came in as a pinch runner or late inning defensive replacement five times. No ABs there. In June, six more times.

    Inge was the catching starter at the beginning of the year because Dean Palmer and Tony Clark weren't completely healthy and Robert Fick moved from catcher to DH to 1B. He played late-inning defensive caddy because Fick sucked defensively. His playing time-- and pitcher usage-- are very close to Mesoraco through the end of June.

    At that point, he was indeed sent down to AAA, much like Mesoraco. The only difference, really, is that Inge was sent down slightly sooner and received more ABs both in AAA and when he returned in September.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  13. #207
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Look at Inge's numbers a bit closer. In April, he only played one inning once. In May, he came in as a pinch runner or late inning defensive replacement five times. No ABs there. In June, six more times.

    Inge was the catching starter at the beginning of the year because Dean Palmer and Tony Clark weren't completely healthy and Robert Fick moved from catcher to DH to 1B. He played late-inning defensive caddy because Fick sucked defensively. His playing time-- and pitcher usage-- are very close to Mesoraco through the end of June.

    At that point, he was indeed sent down to AAA, much like Mesoraco. The only difference, really, is that Inge was sent down slightly sooner and received more ABs both in AAA and when he returned in September.
    Are you discounting the notion that Inge was the "majority" catcher the first two months of the season? I don't even expect the Reds to have done that with Devin.

    For what ever reason, Inge was the main man for 2 months (and this is the big leagues, if he had produced he would have stuck). That is not equivalent to Mes.

  14. #208
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    And let's be reasonable, there are few players who you can adequately comp Mes to. He was the 16th ranked prospect overall.

    But to have such a highly ranked guy running his service clock but only starting around 30 percent of the time seems to be a waste.

    I can understand wanting Hanigan to play instead...then shop Mes around as he is/was highly valuable. Get a LF prospect or something.

    I just don't think him riding the bench for 2+ years in Cincy is prudent.

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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    And let's be reasonable, there are few players who you can adequately comp Mes to. He was the 16th ranked prospect overall.

    But to have such a highly ranked guy running his service clock but only starting around 30 percent of the time seems to be a waste.

    I can understand wanting Hanigan to play instead...then shop Mes around as he is/was highly valuable. Get a LF prospect or something.

    I just don't think him riding the bench for 2+ years in Cincy is prudent.
    Reds really don't have a quality catcher in their system. Hanigan is tending downward offensively, and this likely is his last year as the main Starting catcher.

    Mes is still young, and even if this year is a waste, he can be the main starting catcher for at least the next four years, longer if the Reds can sign him to an extension, which these days is becoming easier and easier to do.

    Heck, even if the Reds keep Hanigan until he's a free agent at the end of 2014, that means 3 years of Mes as the starting catcher. The Reds are going to need him then.
    Last edited by 757690; 04-06-2013 at 11:27 PM.
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  18. #210
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Or before.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden


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