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Thread: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

  1. #361
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Let's pretend for a second that your statement is true. That still isn't Mesoraco's problem. It is Homer's problem.
    If Homer percieves his problem is Mesoraco, then that poses a very big problem of Mes I would think.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    And even then, it still doesn't explain why Homer was missing his spots. Was it so much in his head that he couldn't repeat his mechanics?
    Possibly and I don't think it would be much of a reach. Pitchers are a weird bunch as a general rule.

    Homer is really good and I expect him to give the Reds a chance to win more often than not, but he hasn't quite proven himself to be unshakable.
    Last edited by TSJ55; 04-11-2013 at 01:38 PM.
    Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted.

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  3. #362
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    I love that you linked to an article centered around Cliff Lee. Going back to 2008, Lee has thrown to 14 different catchers. Fourteen! He looks a whole lot like the exact same guy in all of those years doesn't he? Now, a lot of those innings were thrown to two guys, Shoppach and Ruiz. Let's split it into three groups.

    Shoppach, Ruiz and Everyone Else.

    Strikeout rate: 18%, 25.2% and 23%.
    Walk Rate: 4.4%, 4.3% and 2.6%.
    K/BB Rate: 4.06, 5.89 and 8.83

    Since most of his "consistent work" came with Shoppach and Ruiz, wouldn't we expect his walk rate and strikeout rates to be better with those guys? He, in theory, should be more comfortable with them and more on the same page with them, right?

    Why is it then that the mix/match group he had the best K/BB rate, lowest walk rate and second highest K rate?

  4. #363
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by TSJ55 View Post
    Possibly and I don't think it would be much of a reach. Pitchers are a weird bunch as a general rule.
    Then why didn't it cause issues in the first half last season, when Homer was better than he had ever been before?

    It is a huge reach. It isn't like Homer had never pitched to Hanigan before, so he didn't know what he was missing. He had. A bunch. Yet he went out in 2012 with Mesoraco in the first half and was better and more consistent than he had ever been in his life.

  5. #364
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Several posters have stated in this thread that Homer prefers to throw to Hanigan.

    Has Homer actually said that? If so, I missed him saying that.

    If Homer has not said that, can people stop stating it as fact when it would be simple conjecture?

  6. #365
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    I have stated on here numerous times when people try to compare pitchers stats to the catcher they are throwing to....it just doesnt work like that....way to many variables to come up with any type of stat or assumption of production.......I do trust that certain pitchers get comfortable with catchers and they probably do prefer to pitch to the same glove every 5 days but in no way does it make them a better or worse pitcher IMO.

  7. #366
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I love that you linked to an article centered around Cliff Lee....
    Lee was one example of several and there are references all over baseball that a skilled catcher can be an intricate cog to a pitcher's success.

    It's par to make an opinion and then dig up numbers to support that opinion though. I'm sure if you were debating the other side you could find numbers to support that too.

    I guess I'll just have to remain uninformed with my ignorant sources. What could 300 game winners and ring wearing managers possibly know about the game?
    Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted.

    All the dishes rattle in the cupboards when the elephants arrive

  8. #367
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by TSJ55 View Post
    Lee was one example of several and there are references all over baseball that a skilled catcher can be an intricate cog to a pitcher's success.

    It's par to make an opinion and then dig up numbers to support that opinion though. I'm sure if you were debating the other side you could find numbers to support that too.

    I guess I'll just have to remain uninformed with my ignorant sources. What could 300 game winners and ring wearing managers possibly know about the game?
    Beats me. Ted Williams was the greatest hitter ever. But he was a terrible hitting coach. Being really good at doing something doesn't mean you can tell people why you were good at it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Beats me. Ted Williams was the greatest hitter ever. But he was a terrible hitting coach. Being really good at doing something doesn't mean you can tell people why you were good at it.
    Ted wasn't a terrible hitting coach.


    http://seamheads.com/ted-williams-an...inning-season/

    Spring Training in 1969 introduced Frank Howard, Mike Epstein, Eddie Brinkman and others to their new manager. It was the beginning of a lifelong friendship for many, but regardless whether they liked Williams, he was an intense tutor determined to make a difference in the Senators approach at the plate. There was never enough batting practice for Williams and the Senators took advantage of the opportunity.

    He sought to teach every hitter to be more selective. Get a good pitch to hit, bush,was the mantra from the dugout all that spring. Williams took Frank Howard aside and asked him How can a guy hit 44 home runs, and only get 48 base-on-balls? He taught Howard that he did not have to swing at every fast ball he saw and told him that just because a pitch was a strike, he did not have to swing at it. He taught little Eddie Brinkman a new mental approach after he hit only .229 in 1968. He took Mike Epstein from a raw rookie with amazing power and taught him the fundamentals, ones Epstein teaches to this day.

    It was a slow process and most believed that Williams would tire of it, yet he remained engaged, working slowly with his charges and making progress that no one saw at first. But they noticed him there every day around the cage talking and teaching. Careful observers saw an energetic manager always hanging on the batting cage in Florida. Some began to think Williams might be able to handle the new job better than the line of fishing rods he had been pushing for Sears.

  10. #369
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Ted wasn't a terrible hitting coach.


    http://seamheads.com/ted-williams-an...inning-season/
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  11. #370
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Ted wasn't a terrible hitting coach.


    http://seamheads.com/ted-williams-an...inning-season/
    Fine, bad example. Overall point remains: Simply because you could do something doesn't mean you can teach it. And just because you weren't good at something doesn't mean you can't teach how to be good at it.

  12. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Fine, bad example. Overall point remains: Simply because you could do something doesn't mean you can teach it. And just because you weren't good at something doesn't mean you can't teach how to be good at it.
    Apparently Ty Cobb was a good hitting coach, but a poor manager because he couldn't wrap his head around why success didn't come as easy to his charges as it did him

  13. #372
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    I'm kinda expecting a loss tonight because Mez is probably catching Leake, and Burnett is going for the Pirates.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  14. #373
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    I'm kinda expecting a loss tonight because Mez is probably catching Leake, and Burnett is going for the Pirates.
    I'm kinda expecting some more attempts to create noise on the subject myself.

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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    I'm kinda expecting some more attempts to create noise on the subject myself.
    Well since we've all learned that you're always right, it must be true.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  16. #375
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    Well since we've all learned that you're always right, it must be true.


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