Turn Off Ads?
Page 33 of 41 FirstFirst ... 23293031323334353637 ... LastLast
Results 481 to 495 of 601

Thread: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

  1. #481
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    35,918

    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by RadfordVA View Post
    It doesn't bother you at all that Bailey and pretty much every pitcher would disagree with your opinion? These guys are not complete idiots and have some knowledge about baseball. Which is what they would have to be if a catcher has no impact.
    No, it doesn't bother me one bit. Again, free agent pitchers leave every year and they do exactly what they have done in the past. The catcher has a very, very small amount of input on the performance of the game as long as the catcher is actually of Major League caliber. Put Joey Votto back there, and yes, absolutely it makes a difference.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #482
    Member 757690's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Dayton
    Posts
    11,462

    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No, it doesn't bother me one bit. Again, free agent pitchers leave every year and they do exactly what they have done in the past. The catcher has a very, very small amount of input on the performance of the game as long as the catcher is actually of Major League caliber. Put Joey Votto back there, and yes, absolutely it makes a difference.
    That is not a convincing argument to defend the notion that catchers have no influence on how well a pitcher pitches.

    It likely just means that MLB teams make an effort to have catchers who do a good job of catching, who are catchers that positively effect how well a pitcher pitches. It likely just means that catchers who have a negative effect on how well a pitcher pitches don't do a lot of catching, or are backups, so their effect is the same from team to team.

    I think everyone who plays the game will tell you that the question isn't "do catchers effect how well a pitcher pitches?" But "how much do catchers effect how well a pitcher pitches?"
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  4. #483
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    35,918

    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    That is not a convincing argument to defend the notion that catchers have no influence on how well a pitcher pitches.

    It likely just means that MLB teams make an effort to have catchers who do a good job of catching, who are catchers that positively effect how well a pitcher pitches. It likely just means that catchers who have a negative effect on how well a pitcher pitches don't do a lot of catching, or are backups, so their effect is the same from team to team.

    I think everyone who plays the game will tell you that the question isn't "do catchers effect how well a pitcher pitches?" But "how much do catchers effect how well a pitcher pitches?"

    Sure. Guys that suck at catching, don't catch. But there has to be "bad starting defensive catchers" and "good starting defensive catchers". Yet it seems that the good pitchers always seem to find the good catchers. Coincidence or good pitchers make catchers look better defensively because they can throw the ball to the spots that they want?

  5. Likes:

    thatcoolguy_22 (04-17-2013)

  6. #484
    Member 757690's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Dayton
    Posts
    11,462

    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Sure. Guys that suck at catching, don't catch. But there has to be "bad starting defensive catchers" and "good starting defensive catchers". Yet it seems that the good pitchers always seem to find the good catchers. Coincidence or good pitchers make catchers look better defensively because they can throw the ball to the spots that they want?
    Without doing extensive research, we'll never know for sure.

    It might very well be that above average pitchers aren't effected much by whose catching, but mediocre and below average pitchers are. We might even, with extensive research, find a few good pitchers who historically pitched better with one catcher over another. Or maybe we find that there are no cases where a pitcher pitches better to one catcher over others.

    However, it's illogical to conclude that catchers have zero effect on how well pitchers pitch bad on the fact that all good pitchers that switch teams continue to pitch the same (which actually isn't even true.)
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  7. #485
    Arbiter of Good Taste OGB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    1,159

    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Probably because Ryan Hanigan had nothing to do at all with what Bailey did tonight.

    Bailey was the guy out there throwing 93-97 all night long. He was the guy not missing his spots. He was the guy throwing two breaking balls in the zone and the guy burying his splitter in the dirt. Ryan Hanigan had a hit, a weak ground out and an infield fly ball.
    I generally agree with you on this topic, but in two starts this year with Hanigan behind the dish, Bailey has been bar none the best pitcher in all of baseball. I'm not anxious to go and change anything. If the guy receiving pitches has a low impact on the pitching performance (which I believe) I'd just as soon see Mes catch Latos, Cueto, or Arroyo.
    I may not be fast, but I sure am slow.

  8. #486
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lebanon
    Posts
    7,067

    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Throw out the stats, and look at the mental aspect of it all. Clearly, it MIGHT be in Bailey's head that he pitches better with Hanigan behind the plate. And the numbers sure back that up since last August.

    Strange coincidence? Luck? Who knows. I'll give in on the "the catcher doesn't throw to the plate argument". But I think my argument all along, which I didn't really make clear, is that in Bailey's head, he probably thinks he pitches better with Hanny behind the plate.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  9. Likes:

    *BaseClogger* (04-17-2013), RadfordVA (04-17-2013)

  10. #487
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Brownsburg, Indiana
    Posts
    15,268

    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    I think it helps when the pitcher and catcher are on the same page on pitch selection. It makes it easier for the pitcher and he doesn't have to think as much. Most pitchers like to get into a rhythm and constantly having to shake your catcher off destroys that rhythm. Other than that, the confidence in your catcher's ability to block any ball in the dirt is maybe the greatest mental plus for any pitcher. It allows you to throw the breaking stuff with confidence and conviction, not having to worry about the ball getting by the catcher with runners on base. The only other things that I think factor in are the ability for the catcher to sit quietly behind the dish and receive the ball so that the umpire can get a good look at the pitch and having the arm to control the running game. So much of controlling the running game depends on the pitcher's ability to keep the runner close, but knowing in the back of your mind that the catcher has the arm and ability to shoot down the runner is such a plus for the pitcher.

    Ryan Hannigan is a good defensive catcher. Very cerebral, but I have noticed that he has been off his defensive game a little bit so far this season. A little busier back there and that can happen with age. I wonder if eyesight may be a bit of a problem. Just looks to me like he isn't seeing the ball as well, and that could factor over to his hitting problems as well. I know that I don't see the ball as well now, when I am catching my 15, soon to be 16, year old son's bullpens. Granted, I am 52 and much older than Hannigan, but I have noticed that it has become much more difficult to see the ball as I have gotten older, even with corrective lenses and, high 70's to low 80's is not close to what the big leaguers are throwing. Age can creep up on a catcher, quickly.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  11. Likes:

    *BaseClogger* (04-17-2013), mth123 (04-18-2013)

  12. #488
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    CHATTANOOGA, TN USA
    Posts
    311

    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Ryan Hanigan's "catcher era" was 3.05 last year and 4.01 in 2011.

    Was Ryan a better "catcher" last year vs. 2 years ago?

    Or did the following bring his era up in 2011 vs. 2012?

    1. Latos replacing Volquez (and to Dougdirt's point on pitchers change catchers all the time and their performance follows them..Volquez is the same ole crappy 4.5+ era while pitching in 2nd biggest park in MLB...while Latos is duplicating his performance with a brand new catcher in Hanigan)
    2. Arroyo bouncing back from arthritis/mono issues in 2011
    3. Bailey's maturation
    4. Not having Travis Wood, Dontrelle Willis flopping around the rotation
    Last edited by UK Reds Fan; 04-17-2013 at 10:46 AM.

  13. Likes:

    CySeymour (04-17-2013), thatcoolguy_22 (04-17-2013)

  14. #489
    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Carmel, IN
    Posts
    2,334

    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    So if Hannigan gets hurt, what happens? Pitchers HAVE to get over only wanting to throw to Hannigan. Someone has to pitch to Mes, and it can't always just be the 5th starter. Especially Arroyo. He's has been around long enough that he has an idea how he likes to pitch, so only wanting a certain catcher shouldn't be something he needs.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

  15. #490
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Charlotte, Nc
    Posts
    15,226

    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Take it for what it's worth.

    Mes is currently on pace for 173 PA's (38 games) and 335 inning (37 games) at catcher.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  16. #491
    Winning is fun.
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Urbana, OH
    Posts
    810

    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by CySeymour View Post
    So if Hannigan gets hurt, what happens? Pitchers HAVE to get over only wanting to throw to Hannigan.
    How about what happens once Hanigan is done? Should the Reds let Homer walk in two years since Hanigan will most likely be done as well?

  17. #492
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    14,278

    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No, it doesn't bother me one bit. Again, free agent pitchers leave every year and they do exactly what they have done in the past. The catcher has a very, very small amount of input on the performance of the game as long as the catcher is actually of Major League caliber. Put Joey Votto back there, and yes, absolutely it makes a difference.
    Sometimes we write about these players like they are machines.

    I'm sure there are many pitchers who are equally effective with almost any catcher behind the plate. Or equally ineffective. Guessing this is the majority of cases, as long as the catcher is competent.

    I'm also quite sure that some pitchers develop relationships with catchers and would require an adjustment period before they could be successful with a new catcher.

    There may be some pitchers, probably a limited number, who have great difficulty when a new catcher takes over.

    There also may be some pitchers who can do well throwing to most catchers, but have trouble throwing to some particular catchers for whatever reason.

    My guess is that it depends on the pitcher. What the impact of Mesoraco vs. Hanigan might be on the particular pitchers on the Reds, I have no way of knowing, but I think you'd have to talk to the pitching coach and the pitcher himself to find out for sure.

    Just intuitively, you'd expect that most of the Reds pitchers could handle either catcher behind the plate. A few might be affected by a switch.

  18. Likes:

    RadfordVA (04-17-2013)

  19. #493
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    34,549

    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    Throw out the stats, and look at the mental aspect of it all. Clearly, it MIGHT be in Bailey's head that he pitches better with Hanigan behind the plate. And the numbers sure back that up since last August.

    Strange coincidence? Luck? Who knows. I'll give in on the "the catcher doesn't throw to the plate argument". But I think my argument all along, which I didn't really make clear, is that in Bailey's head, he probably thinks he pitches better with Hanny behind the plate.
    It also used to be in Homer's head - as recently as last year - that he couldn't pitch well in GABP.
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rally-...24872650873160

  20. #494
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lebanon
    Posts
    7,067

    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    I hear Hanigan is nervous about catching Cingrani's "curveball", so Mez will probably catch him. But Mez swears it's a "slider".

    So much controversy with this team.

    And what happens when both Mez and Hanigan get hurt? Who catches then? The pitchers don't like anyone else catching them. Maybe they all protest and refuse to pitch?
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  21. #495
    Member RadfordVA's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    935

    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    No, it doesn't bother me one bit. Again, free agent pitchers leave every year and they do exactly what they have done in the past.
    Free agents perform exactly as they have done in the past? News to me. Would make a General Manager's job a lot easier thats for sure.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25