Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

[dougdirt]

It doesn't bother you at all that Bailey and pretty much every pitcher would disagree with your opinion? These guys are not complete idiots and have some knowledge about baseball. Which is what they would have to be if a catcher has no impact.

No, it doesn't bother me one bit. Again, free agent pitchers leave every year and they do exactly what they have done in the past. The catcher has a very, very small amount of input on the performance of the game as long as the catcher is actually of Major League caliber. Put Joey Votto back there, and yes, absolutely it makes a difference.

[757690]

No, it doesn't bother me one bit. Again, free agent pitchers leave every year and they do exactly what they have done in the past. The catcher has a very, very small amount of input on the performance of the game as long as the catcher is actually of Major League caliber. Put Joey Votto back there, and yes, absolutely it makes a difference.

That is not a convincing argument to defend the notion that catchers have no influence on how well a pitcher pitches.

It likely just means that MLB teams make an effort to have catchers who do a good job of catching, who are catchers that positively effect how well a pitcher pitches. It likely just means that catchers who have a negative effect on how well a pitcher pitches don't do a lot of catching, or are backups, so their effect is the same from team to team.

I think everyone who plays the game will tell you that the question isn't "do catchers effect how well a pitcher pitches?" But "how much do catchers effect how well a pitcher pitches?"

[dougdirt]

That is not a convincing argument to defend the notion that catchers have no influence on how well a pitcher pitches.

It likely just means that MLB teams make an effort to have catchers who do a good job of catching, who are catchers that positively effect how well a pitcher pitches. It likely just means that catchers who have a negative effect on how well a pitcher pitches don't do a lot of catching, or are backups, so their effect is the same from team to team.

I think everyone who plays the game will tell you that the question isn't "do catchers effect how well a pitcher pitches?" But "how much do catchers effect how well a pitcher pitches?"

Sure. Guys that suck at catching, don't catch. But there has to be "bad starting defensive catchers" and "good starting defensive catchers". Yet it seems that the good pitchers always seem to find the good catchers. Coincidence or good pitchers make catchers look better defensively because they can throw the ball to the spots that they want?

[757690]

Sure. Guys that suck at catching, don't catch. But there has to be "bad starting defensive catchers" and "good starting defensive catchers". Yet it seems that the good pitchers always seem to find the good catchers. Coincidence or good pitchers make catchers look better defensively because they can throw the ball to the spots that they want?

Without doing extensive research, we'll never know for sure.

It might very well be that above average pitchers aren't effected much by whose catching, but mediocre and below average pitchers are. We might even, with extensive research, find a few good pitchers who historically pitched better with one catcher over another. Or maybe we find that there are no cases where a pitcher pitches better to one catcher over others.

However, it's illogical to conclude that catchers have zero effect on how well pitchers pitch bad on the fact that all good pitchers that switch teams continue to pitch the same (which actually isn't even true.)

[OGB]

Probably because Ryan Hanigan had nothing to do at all with what Bailey did tonight.

Bailey was the guy out there throwing 93-97 all night long. He was the guy not missing his spots. He was the guy throwing two breaking balls in the zone and the guy burying his splitter in the dirt. Ryan Hanigan had a hit, a weak ground out and an infield fly ball.

I generally agree with you on this topic, but in two starts this year with Hanigan behind the dish, Bailey has been bar none the best pitcher in all of baseball. I'm not anxious to go and change anything. If the guy receiving pitches has a low impact on the pitching performance (which I believe) I'd just as soon see Mes catch Latos, Cueto, or Arroyo.

[Vottomatic]

Throw out the stats, and look at the mental aspect of it all. Clearly, it MIGHT be in Bailey's head that he pitches better with Hanigan behind the plate. And the numbers sure back that up since last August.

Strange coincidence? Luck? Who knows. I'll give in on the "the catcher doesn't throw to the plate argument". But I think my argument all along, which I didn't really make clear, is that in Bailey's head, he probably thinks he pitches better with Hanny behind the plate.

[RollyInRaleigh]

I think it helps when the pitcher and catcher are on the same page on pitch selection. It makes it easier for the pitcher and he doesn't have to think as much. Most pitchers like to get into a rhythm and constantly having to shake your catcher off destroys that rhythm. Other than that, the confidence in your catcher's ability to block any ball in the dirt is maybe the greatest mental plus for any pitcher. It allows you to throw the breaking stuff with confidence and conviction, not having to worry about the ball getting by the catcher with runners on base. The only other things that I think factor in are the ability for the catcher to sit quietly behind the dish and receive the ball so that the umpire can get a good look at the pitch and having the arm to control the running game. So much of controlling the running game depends on the pitcher's ability to keep the runner close, but knowing in the back of your mind that the catcher has the arm and ability to shoot down the runner is such a plus for the pitcher.

Ryan Hannigan is a good defensive catcher. Very cerebral, but I have noticed that he has been off his defensive game a little bit so far this season. A little busier back there and that can happen with age. I wonder if eyesight may be a bit of a problem. Just looks to me like he isn't seeing the ball as well, and that could factor over to his hitting problems as well. I know that I don't see the ball as well now, when I am catching my 15, soon to be 16, year old son's bullpens. Granted, I am 52 and much older than Hannigan, but I have noticed that it has become much more difficult to see the ball as I have gotten older, even with corrective lenses and, high 70's to low 80's is not close to what the big leaguers are throwing. Age can creep up on a catcher, quickly.

[UK Reds Fan]

Ryan Hanigan's "catcher era" was 3.05 last year and 4.01 in 2011.

Was Ryan a better "catcher" last year vs. 2 years ago?

Or did the following bring his era up in 2011 vs. 2012?

1. Latos replacing Volquez (and to Dougdirt's point on pitchers change catchers all the time and their performance follows them..Volquez is the same ole crappy 4.5+ era while pitching in 2nd biggest park in MLB...while Latos is duplicating his performance with a brand new catcher in Hanigan)
2. Arroyo bouncing back from arthritis/mono issues in 2011
3. Bailey's maturation
4. Not having Travis Wood, Dontrelle Willis flopping around the rotation

[CySeymour]

So if Hannigan gets hurt, what happens? Pitchers HAVE to get over only wanting to throw to Hannigan. Someone has to pitch to Mes, and it can't always just be the 5th starter. Especially Arroyo. He's has been around long enough that he has an idea how he likes to pitch, so only wanting a certain catcher shouldn't be something he needs.

[Raisor]

Take it for what it's worth.

Mes is currently on pace for 173 PA's (38 games) and 335 inning (37 games) at catcher.

[RiverRat13]

So if Hannigan gets hurt, what happens? Pitchers HAVE to get over only wanting to throw to Hannigan.

How about what happens once Hanigan is done? Should the Reds let Homer walk in two years since Hanigan will most likely be done as well?

[Kc61]

No, it doesn't bother me one bit. Again, free agent pitchers leave every year and they do exactly what they have done in the past. The catcher has a very, very small amount of input on the performance of the game as long as the catcher is actually of Major League caliber. Put Joey Votto back there, and yes, absolutely it makes a difference.

Sometimes we write about these players like they are machines.

I'm sure there are many pitchers who are equally effective with almost any catcher behind the plate. Or equally ineffective. Guessing this is the majority of cases, as long as the catcher is competent.

I'm also quite sure that some pitchers develop relationships with catchers and would require an adjustment period before they could be successful with a new catcher.

There may be some pitchers, probably a limited number, who have great difficulty when a new catcher takes over.

There also may be some pitchers who can do well throwing to most catchers, but have trouble throwing to some particular catchers for whatever reason.

My guess is that it depends on the pitcher. What the impact of Mesoraco vs. Hanigan might be on the particular pitchers on the Reds, I have no way of knowing, but I think you'd have to talk to the pitching coach and the pitcher himself to find out for sure.

Just intuitively, you'd expect that most of the Reds pitchers could handle either catcher behind the plate. A few might be affected by a switch.

[Chip R]

Throw out the stats, and look at the mental aspect of it all. Clearly, it MIGHT be in Bailey's head that he pitches better with Hanigan behind the plate. And the numbers sure back that up since last August.

Strange coincidence? Luck? Who knows. I'll give in on the "the catcher doesn't throw to the plate argument". But I think my argument all along, which I didn't really make clear, is that in Bailey's head, he probably thinks he pitches better with Hanny behind the plate.

It also used to be in Homer's head - as recently as last year - that he couldn't pitch well in GABP.

[Vottomatic]

I hear Hanigan is nervous about catching Cingrani's "curveball", so Mez will probably catch him. But Mez swears it's a "slider".

So much controversy with this team.

And what happens when both Mez and Hanigan get hurt? Who catches then? The pitchers don't like anyone else catching them. Maybe they all protest and refuse to pitch?

[RadfordVA]

No, it doesn't bother me one bit. Again, free agent pitchers leave every year and they do exactly what they have done in the past.

Free agents perform exactly as they have done in the past? News to me. Would make a General Manager's job a lot easier thats for sure.