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Thread: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

  1. #556
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Since Hanigan went to the DL, here is the Reds pitching staff with Mesoraco behind the plate:

    Code:
    	        IP 	H 	BB 	SO 	HR 	ERA 
    All	        62	47	13	65	5	2.03
    Starters	40	33	10	38	2	1.58
    Relievers	22	14	3	27	3	2.86
    Can we put to rest the idea that our pitching staff is good because of the guy catching the ball behind the plate and get behind the idea that the pitching staff is good because they are awfully talented at throwing the baseball?

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    alwaysawarrior (04-25-2013), kaldaniels (04-25-2013), OnBaseMachine (04-25-2013), RiverRat13 (04-25-2013)

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  4. #557
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Since Hanigan went to the DL, here is the Reds pitching staff with Mesoraco behind the plate:

    Code:
    	        IP 	H 	BB 	SO 	HR 	ERA 
    All	        62	47	13	65	5	2.03
    Starters	40	33	10	38	2	1.58
    Relievers	22	14	3	27	3	2.86
    Can we put to rest the idea that our pitching staff is good because of the guy catching the ball behind the plate and get behind the idea that the pitching staff is good because they are awfully talented at throwing the baseball?
    Can we agree that sample size is small for your deceleration?

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    _Sir_Charles_ (04-25-2013)

  6. #558
    Member OnBaseMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Not to mention Mes is hitting .286/.381/.371 - .752 OPS. I think the power will come. He's hitting the ball very hard.
    I miss Adam Dunn.

  7. #559
    Member RadfordVA's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Since Hanigan went to the DL, here is the Reds pitching staff with Mesoraco behind the plate:

    Code:
    	        IP 	H 	BB 	SO 	HR 	ERA 
    All	        62	47	13	65	5	2.03
    Starters	40	33	10	38	2	1.58
    Relievers	22	14	3	27	3	2.86
    Can we put to rest the idea that our pitching staff is good because of the guy catching the ball behind the plate and get behind the idea that the pitching staff is good because they are awfully talented at throwing the baseball?
    Why can't those stats prove Mesoraco has done a good job of calling a game since he has gotten his opportunity? So I guess his hitting stats are sure to improve with steady time at the plate but not his ability to be the game manager behind the plate. Seems very selective.

  8. #560
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    It's not a slight on Hannigan, but Mesoraco is just a better player than he is with loads more potential.

    Are we going to see something similar to Rolen/Frazier of last year? Unfortunately with Dusty who knows.
    I see great things in baseball. It's our game.

  9. #561
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Can we agree that sample size is small for your deceleration?
    Certainly it is a small sample size, but if Mesoraco were some poor game caller or catcher and was making some kind of difference with the pitchers, those numbers wouldn't be there.

    Being able to call a game isn't a skillset that is going to go from good to bad in a sample size. Being able to catch a game isn't going to go from good to bad in a sample size. Either it is or it isn't there.

  10. #562
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by RadfordVA View Post
    Why can't those stats prove Mesoraco has done a good job of calling a game since he has gotten his opportunity? So I guess his hitting stats are sure to improve with steady time at the plate but not his ability to be the game manager behind the plate. Seems very selective.
    I am not really sure what point you are trying to make. Can you expand a little more?

  11. #563
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Certainly it is a small sample size, but if Mesoraco were some poor game caller or catcher and was making some kind of difference with the pitchers, those numbers wouldn't be there.

    Being able to call a game isn't a skillset that is going to go from good to bad in a sample size. Being able to catch a game isn't going to go from good to bad in a sample size. Either it is or it isn't there.
    I don't think there's much truth to the idea that Mesoraco can't call a game, but your response is flat ridiculous and I'd expect a lot more coming from someone that follows the game like you do, Doug.

    Albert Pujols had a .500 OPS after a month last year. By your logic, if Pujols were a great hitter, those numbers would have been there.

    Yet after a week you're suggesting that Mesoraco's ability to call a game would have already been exposed in the pitcher's ERA? That's silly.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Is there anyway Hanigan is traded this year?

  13. #565
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    I don't think there's much truth to the idea that Mesoraco can't call a game, but your response is flat ridiculous and I'd expect a lot more coming from someone that follows the game like you do, Doug.

    Albert Pujols had a .500 OPS after a month last year. By your logic, if Pujols were a great hitter, those numbers would have been there.

    Yet after a week you're suggesting that Mesoraco's ability to call a game would have already been exposed in the pitcher's ERA? That's silly.
    My logic isn't following your Pujols example.

    "Calling a game" is a mental thing. It isn't a physical skill thing. If Pujols was out there with 1 walk and 30 strikeouts last April, then the logic would be the same because it would show a mental approach issue. But we didn't see that. We saw a low BABIP and low home run power output. A guy who can't call a good game isn't going to get his pitchers more strikeouts than innings pitched and a walk rate of 1.89/9ip.

    Catching the game itself, is a physical thing. We could call sample size on that.

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    Member RadfordVA's Avatar
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Certainly it is a small sample size, but if Mesoraco were some poor game caller or catcher and was making some kind of difference with the pitchers, those numbers wouldn't be there.

    Being able to call a game isn't a skillset that is going to go from good to bad in a sample size. Being able to catch a game isn't going to go from good to bad in a sample size. Either it is or it isn't there.
    This is where we disagree. Calling a game is not a physical skillset and there will be great variation from day to day on your effectiveness. That is why there will never be a stat that truly reflects it's effectiveness or ineffectiveness.

    Since it is not a physical tool and only based on decision making there will be wild swings in effectiveness. You may feel in general you are a good decision maker in life but I am sure you have made a few bad ones. Maybe a few bad ones in a week. A catcher is having to make hundreds of decisions in one game. If he makes a few bad ones out of those hundred his bottom line is going to look pretty bad. Doesn't change the fact that he is a good decision maker and his teammates trust him overall.

  15. #567
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by UCBrownsfan View Post
    Is there anyway Hanigan is traded this year?
    Not unless a team grossly overpays for him. Hanigan is a big part of this team, even if Mesoraco starts getting 3 of 5 starts. The depth simply isn't there to trade away a guy like Hanigan, even if he does move to the "backup role". Hanigan is a giant upgrade over anyone else that would replace him at this point.

  16. #568
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by RadfordVA View Post
    This is where we disagree. Calling a game is not a physical skillset and there will be great variation from day to day on your effectiveness. That is why there will never be a stat that truly reflects it's effectiveness or ineffectiveness.

    Since it is not a physical tool and only based on decision making there will be wild swings in effectiveness. You may feel in general you are a good decision maker in life but I am sure you have made a few bad ones. Maybe a few bad ones in a week. A catcher is having to make hundreds of decisions in one game. If he makes a few bad ones out of those hundred his bottom line is going to look pretty bad. Doesn't change the fact that he is a good decision maker and his teammates trust him overall.
    At what point does someone get credit for being a good game caller then? How can you even tell who is one? Do we simply just take the word of someone else (the pitcher, a manager, a scout) who is likely making their statement based on the results of what happened rather than the process that went into what happened?

  17. #569
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    My logic isn't following your Pujols example.

    "Calling a game" is a mental thing. It isn't a physical skill thing. If Pujols was out there with 1 walk and 30 strikeouts last April, then the logic would be the same because it would show a mental approach issue. But we didn't see that. We saw a low BABIP and low home run power output. A guy who can't call a good game isn't going to get his pitchers more strikeouts than innings pitched and a walk rate of 1.89/9ip.

    Catching the game itself, is a physical thing. We could call sample size on that.
    You assume that there is no skill in calling a game?

  18. #570
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    Re: Mesoraco makes team, Olivo down or gone

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    You assume that there is no skill in calling a game?
    I didn't say that. I am saying that the sample size isn't likely needed to be large to determine if the skill is there or not.


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