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Thread: Cardinals sign Wainwright to Extension

  1. #16
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals sign Wainwright to Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    I meant this 2012-2013 offseason, should have clarified.
    What would the Cardinals been able to flip him for? The Cardinals are in transition but they're still going to be able to compete. However I think it would have been disastrous not having a frontline starter with a pitching staff full of rookies and no real veterans on it.
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  3. #17
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals sign Wainwright to Extension

    I didn't realize how old he is. I thought he was still in his 20s.
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  4. #18
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals sign Wainwright to Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    I didn't realize how old he is. I thought he was still in his 20s.
    Me either.

    I don't see the Cards pitching staff being as dominant now that the great pitching coach, whose name escapes me momentarily, retired the season before last. Duncan. There it is.

    I see a regression.

    And if Beltran is injured most of the season, there will be a huge hole in the middle of that lineup which usually results in other hitters trying to do too much.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

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  5. #19
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals sign Wainwright to Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    And if Beltran is injured most of the season, there will be a huge hole in the middle of that lineup which usually results in other hitters trying to do too much.
    Not to de-rail this thread but it has surprised me how healthy he's been since coming over to StL.
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  6. #20
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals sign Wainwright to Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    Me either.

    I don't see the Cards pitching staff being as dominant now that the great pitching coach, whose name escapes me momentarily, retired the season before last. Duncan. There it is.

    I see a regression.

    And if Beltran is injured most of the season, there will be a huge hole in the middle of that lineup which usually results in other hitters trying to do too much.
    I keep saying it here but I'm going to say it again. If you're a fan of the Reds, you do not want Beltran to get injured because that means Oscar Taveras gets called up. He, in my opinion, is a game changer. You see him take AB's in spring training and you can see why he's regarded the best hitting prospect in the minors. He has an insanely good batting eye from what I've seen.

    Besides, Beltran generally hits second and you still would have Holliday, Craig, and Molina hitting. Those players carried the team last year when Beltran cooled off.
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  7. #21
    Member smixsell's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals sign Wainwright to Extension

    What a relief.

    I was getting worried that without TLR, Duncan, and Carpenter the Cardinals would be getting much tougher to hate.

    Now we can be sure there will be someone to carry on in Carpenter's old role of making extremely stupid and/or irritating remarks at least once every couple of weeks.

    Now I see that my worries were foolish. The Cardinals are COMMITTED to fielding a team that's easy to hate.

  8. #22
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    Re: Cardinals sign Wainwright to Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Firstly,how can you predict that two players would be inclined to win arbitration cases two years in the future when you have no idea how well they have performed and what they are asking for? The two variables that make up a case are unknown?

    And secondly, like any long term signing these days, two much money and too many years. But whatcha gonna do, let your best pitcher walk? You gotta plug your nose and sign the contract if you want to compete these days.
    Based on stats used in the cases, Lynn has an All-Star game and a 18 win season that give him a early advantage over the Cardinals he would have to completely tank to wash that out and if he tanks it will set them back needed to sign FA. Its the same reason why Freese asked for the moon and forced the Cardinals to settle for higher than they wanted because he would have won his case if they went to mediation.

    Like I said before the guys who are going to make or break them are the group who will be looking for money in the next couple years.

    I don't blame them for locking him up but they are paying him for what he was not what he is now and it has a chance to burn them long term if he doesn't find his pre-TJ FB again. He's bound to get hit by the innings load last year after missing all of 2011 so he will be 32.5 when this 5 year deal kicks in likely 3 years removed form his best stuff.

  9. #23
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    Re: Cardinals sign Wainwright to Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    Hometown, I see what you're saying but at the same time, I don't know why Cardinals fans worry so much about the Cardinals expense. The organization has presented this tale to the fandom that they're this mid-market team that's cash strapped. St. Louis fans have bought into this "woe is me" argument from management. However, just look at the recent Forbes annual franchise evaluation of MLB teams. The team had a revenue last season of 239 million, even with their god awful pitiful TV contract. Their payroll is 134 million (I'm assuming that's including all minor league players as well as big league players). They have a miniscule operating income of 19 million. This team is not going into the poor house anytime soon. Now that they've almost paid down the new stadium that profit stream will continue to grow due to not allocating revenue towards it. Even with arbitration cases coming up, they've locked up most of their core long term. What the Cardinals spend on their elite players doesn't make me stay up at night, I'll just say that.

    http://www.forbes.com/teams/st-louis-cardinals/

    They spend a ton of money vs others in the division but they're also ran like a business as the DeWitt's look to squeeze ever cent they can out of Cardinals fans. If they had grand plans on putting all this added money back into payroll other than what they have to spend to keep a competitive team thus keeping that 3M+ ATM's in the stands then they would have inked Pujols.

    I personally believe Cardinals fans should be more worried about who is going to be the next owner and how much will he spend after making a massive investment to buy the team because as soon as the new TV deal comes up there is very little doubt in my mind they will put the team up for sale.

    If they were in for the long haul they would have paid Albert, by the time he's done playing and going to Cooperstown most if not all of the HOF they bring around will be gone. One reason why it was so smart to give him the 10 year personal service contract by the Angels. I also don't think its a coincidence all their big deals fall off the books right about the time they will be exploring a TV deal making it more appealing to new buyers, while if they had a potential bad Pujols deal lingering as dead weight for a few years it would make the value go down.

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    Re: Cardinals sign Wainwright to Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by smixsell View Post
    What a relief.

    I was getting worried that without TLR, Duncan, and Carpenter the Cardinals would be getting much tougher to hate.

    Now we can be sure there will be someone to carry on in Carpenter's old role of making extremely stupid and/or irritating remarks at least once every couple of weeks.

    Now I see that my worries were foolish. The Cardinals are COMMITTED to fielding a team that's easy to hate.
    As long as the front of the uniform says "Cardinals", it will be easy
    Pete Rose will be leaving the Montreal Expos to become player - manager for the Cincinnati Reds

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    Re: Cardinals sign Wainwright to Extension

    Carpenter is a hammer. And by that, I mean a tool.
    Pete Rose will be leaving the Montreal Expos to become player - manager for the Cincinnati Reds

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    Chip R (03-29-2013), Scrap Irony (03-29-2013)

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    Re: Cardinals sign Wainwright to Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by HometownHero View Post
    Based on stats used in the cases, Lynn has an All-Star game and a 18 win season that give him a early advantage over the Cardinals he would have to completely tank to wash that out and if he tanks it will set them back needed to sign FA. Its the same reason why Freese asked for the moon and forced the Cardinals to settle for higher than they wanted because he would have won his case if they went to mediation.


    You missed my point entirely.

    There are two essential variables that determine whether a player or a team will win in arbiration.

    How much each has asked for, and what the stats of the player are.

    You've indicated that certain players are sure to win their arbitration cases in a few years, and, for the most part, neither of those variables have been established yet.

    It's not as simple as players having good years winning in arbitration. It's based on what those players are asking for. A pitcher could win the CYA, but if he asks for $25M in his first year of arbitration, he will lose.

  14. #27
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    Re: Cardinals sign Wainwright to Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    And thank god the Cardinals didn't sign Pujols,
    You mean "Thank God he turned them down".

  15. #28
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals sign Wainwright to Extension

    A couple points to add...

    Oscar Taveras does not frighten me from the Reds perspective. I'm anxious to see him (face it he will be up sooner or later). I don't want Beltran to get hurt but if he does I won't be saying "oh no, it's Oscar Taveras, we're doomed"). Gotta prove he belongs first. Which he may.

    And second why all the talk (or why bring up) about those two guys going to arbitration? The odds of them not agreeing to a contract before entering the arb process are very, very slim.

  16. #29
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals sign Wainwright to Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by HometownHero View Post
    They spend a ton of money vs others in the division but they're also ran like a business as the DeWitt's look to squeeze ever cent they can out of Cardinals fans. If they had grand plans on putting all this added money back into payroll other than what they have to spend to keep a competitive team thus keeping that 3M+ ATM's in the stands then they would have inked Pujols.

    I personally believe Cardinals fans should be more worried about who is going to be the next owner and how much will he spend after making a massive investment to buy the team because as soon as the new TV deal comes up there is very little doubt in my mind they will put the team up for sale.

    If they were in for the long haul they would have paid Albert, by the time he's done playing and going to Cooperstown most if not all of the HOF they bring around will be gone. One reason why it was so smart to give him the 10 year personal service contract by the Angels. I also don't think its a coincidence all their big deals fall off the books right about the time they will be exploring a TV deal making it more appealing to new buyers, while if they had a potential bad Pujols deal lingering as dead weight for a few years it would make the value go down.
    You are jumping to a ton of conclusions here that aren't really based on any fact what so ever. Why would DeWitt, who's shown no indication that he is going to sell the team, sell the team when he stands to make a ton of money off of a new TV deal? It makes no business sense esp. when the Cardinals continue to increase in value year after year. Why would he also sell the team when DeWitt is projected to make a ton of money off of the Ball Park Village they're starting to build and have plans finalized for?

    Also, not signing Pujols has nothing to do with some back room, smoke and mirrors underhanded thinking by DeWitt to sell the team in 2016-2017. It has everything to do with paying an aging player 25+ million until age 42-43 and the Cards being outbid by a team that has the financial resources to do so.
    Last edited by MikeThierry; 03-29-2013 at 11:03 AM.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

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  17. #30
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    Re: Cardinals sign Wainwright to Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    You missed my point entirely.

    There are two essential variables that determine whether a player or a team will win in arbiration.

    How much each has asked for, and what the stats of the player are.

    You've indicated that certain players are sure to win their arbitration cases in a few years, and, for the most part, neither of those variables have been established yet.

    It's not as simple as players having good years winning in arbitration. It's based on what those players are asking for. A pitcher could win the CYA, but if he asks for $25M in his first year of arbitration, he will lose.
    What they ask for is rarely an issue in first year cases since nobody goes totally off the grid unless they have a Cy or a MVP like Lincecum's 13M with a pair of Cy Young awards and 10M for Howard with his ROY and MVP and even then its not outrageous so your example doesn't really apply.

    Sure if players lost their mind and asked for double the record number they would lose but nobody is going to do that. So at the end of the day you have a player with favorable case asking for a slightly higher than normal number vs a team low balling him to save in the other years, so 95% of the time they team will work out a multiyear deal or settle for at least half and if the player has a strong case more than half.

    Awards and certain stats are key in these cases and a player like Lynn already has a All-Star game under his belt and they can that that away, and his 18 wins was 6th in the majors last year so even if he went 13-13 with a 4 ERA he still has the advantage to win his case so he can ask for a bigger number than a player without awards can. Its the same reason why David Freese could ask for 3.75M in his first year and get the Cards to settle past the standard middle point on his high first year request. And once you jack up the total in the first year it only speeds up the process of making more in year 2 or 3 or forcing the team to buy our you arbitration years in a long term deal.

    The key is getting as much as you can in year one because it will help spike the next years even if the success isn't always there like former Cardinal Colby Rasmus going from 2.7M to 4.7M despite hitting .223.


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