Let's talk about Jay Bruce and his swing over the years

[Wonderful Monds]

(Although if we did decide to argue in those terms for some reason, I would be quick to point out just how many thought Bruce was very much not a deserved All Star last year and how his inclusion snubbed players that were actually deserving.)

[CySeymour]

Jay Bruce finished 10th in the MVP balloting last year at the age of 25 and has been an All Star the last two years. If that doesn't qualify as "very good" for you then I guess he will have to win the MVP Award before you begin to appreciate what the Reds have with their young buck.

According to bb-ref, he had a WAR under 2. For comparison, Cozart had a 2.5 WAR. So no, Bruce isn't "very good" as of yet.

[AtomicDumpling]

No, that literally means nothing to me considering how well established of a sham MLB Awards voting is, and the fact that this argument would not be used to support the merit of any other player.

That this argument is being made though does validate the idea that Redszone cannot judge Jay Bruce very well on an objective level.

Well since we are merely clueless members of Redszone maybe we should just trust your opinion more than the experts who vote for MVP and select the All Star team. Personally I find their opinions much more compelling than yours.

[Raisor]

If Bruce raises his OBP by 20 points, couple extra BBs a month, he's a superstar.

[Wonderful Monds]

Well since we are merely clueless members of Redszone maybe we should just trust your opinion more than the experts who vote for MVP and select the All Star team.

I'm sorry, I absolutely cannot argue this point with a straight face.

This argument would not be used to support any player but Bruce. Their numbers would be the argument. But since Bruce's numbers don't support the narrative, we move on to lesser intellectually honest (read: bad) arguments to make the point.

[Wonderful Monds]

If Bruce raises his OBP by 20 points, couple extra BBs a month, he's a superstar.

I don't know about superstar because that's a heavy word, but I would say he's unquestionably pretty great in that scenario.

That's very much no small task though.

[Wonderful Monds]

Well since we are merely clueless members of Redszone maybe we should just trust your opinion more than the experts who vote for MVP and select the All Star team. Personally I find their opinions much more compelling than yours.

PS: you don't seem to be very consistent in your opinion of the merit of awards results, because your point ITT doesn't seem to jive with things you've said in, say, a thread like this:
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98524

[Old NDN]

When it comes to Bruce, I am as mystified and frustrated as anyone as to why he can't be more consistent. But, in the end, he still comes up with 20-30 bombs and a bunch of RBIs. I think that's what he'll be the rest of his career....and that's okay with me.

[edabbs44]

I'd advise people to compare Bruce with his contemporaries.

Guys 26 and under (and he's a young 26...as he doesn't turn 26 until tomorrow).

We are only 4 years away from needing to compare him to the 30 and younger crowd. Totally looking forward to that.

[westofyou]

We are only 4 years away from needing to compare him to the 30 and younger crowd. Totally looking forward to that.

We look forward to trying to downgrade our comps as well!

[AtomicDumpling]

PS: you don't seem to be very consistent in your opinion of the merit of awards results, because your point ITT doesn't seem to jive with things you've said in, say, a thread like this:
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98524

LOL nice try. I am perfectly consistent. I never said Jay Bruce was as good as Mike Trout or Miguel Cabrera.

Jay Bruce is a very good player. I think all reasonable people would agree on that.

If he is getting MVP votes and winning Silver Sluggers and making multiple All Star teams you have to be quite the hater to deny that he is a very good player.

[Wonderful Monds]

LOL nice try. I am perfectly consistent. I never said Jay Bruce was as good as Mike Trout or Miguel Cabrera.

Jay Bruce is a very good player. I think all reasonable people would agree on that.

If he is getting MVP votes and winning Silver Sluggers and making multiple All Star teams you have to be quite the hater to deny that he is a very good player.

Gee are you sure about that? Because:

Nobody believes that. So what Value does the award really have? What does it mean? Why should we care?
...
I just don't see why I should care about the MVP Award, it clearly doesn't mean much.

Where have you been son? There are outcries almost every year about how farcical the MVP votes are. People have been ridiculing the writers for 80 years. The writers ridicule each other. It has been that way since the very first year.

[Ghosts of 1990]

No, that literally means nothing to me considering how well established of a sham MLB Awards voting is, and the fact that this argument would not be used to support the merit of any other player.

That this argument is being made though does validate the idea that Redszone cannot judge Jay Bruce very well on an objective level.

No doubt about this.

I love the guy, but have become frustrated before with him and received infractions for discussing him "excessively". I think he is a player whom draws the excessive discussion because of the extremes of his peaks and valleys.

But RedsZone as a whole is definitely sensitive on Bruce. You have to pick your spots talking about him or you will make quick enemies about it.

[Ghosts of 1990]

Well since we are merely clueless members of Redszone maybe we should just trust your opinion more than the experts who vote for MVP and select the All Star team. Personally I find their opinions much more compelling than yours.

Keep in mind I really like Jay Bruce the player and the person.....

But did he really deserve the All Star merit at the time last year? I remember thinking it was kind of a joke that he was named and was hitting below .250, what's an All Star these days anyways? It's really not that special to be an All Star anymore, agree?

[kaldaniels]

According to bb-ref, he had a WAR under 2. For comparison, Cozart had a 2.5 WAR. So no, Bruce isn't "very good" as of yet.

God as my witness, I haven't checked fangraphs yet.

But It seems the only time people use WAR from baseball reference is when they don't like what fangraphs WAR is. (Or when it helps their case moreso)