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Thread: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

  1. #1
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    Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    When Phillips bunted on Opening Day I was ok with it. Then I thought it over and I was against it. I decided you can't take the bat out of both Phillips' and Votto's hands.

    Then I read the following quote from Dusty after the game (on Fay's blog):

    “That’s baseball,” Baker said. “If Brandon hits into a double play . . . we couldn’t take a chance on a double play. If Brandon has one fault, it’s hitting into double plays. He hits the ball hard on the ground.”

    This quote caused me heartburn.

    The Reds have decided that with Choo leading off and Votto hitting third, the man to hit second is Phillips. He will therefore bat with a man on first and Votto on deck - very often.

    Does that mean Brandon will be constantly bunting for fear of the DP? Isn't Phillips one of the team's best hitters? Why put him in a batting slot that clearly gives rise to the DP possibility?

    This all may be moot with the Ludwick injury. Phillips may hit fourth now. But frankly, it may be a better spot for Brandon. Heisey and Cozart aren't as good as Phillips, but they don't create the DP risk with Choo on first base.

    Who needs a second place hitter who gives the manager double play jitters?

    We saw yesterday the strategy against the Reds this year. Pitch to Choo, pitch around Votto, go after everyone else. The Reds have to put "everyone else" in the place that will lead to the most success.

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    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    If Dusty is going to bunt Choo over regularly, I'd just assume use Cozart in the 2 slot.

    Cozart is an out machine anyway.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    If Dusty is going to bunt Choo over regularly, I'd just assume use Cozart in the 2 slot.

    Cozart is an out machine anyway.
    I think more highly of Cozart's potential, but your point is valid. Of course, if Dusty is going to bunt Choo over regularly, we have a major offensive problem.

    Votto will never get to hit. Like, ever.

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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    I hate the sac bunt with a passion, especially early in a game and especially with guys in the top of the lineup.

    HATE. IT.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    I was sitting at the game yesterday and was pretty ticked off when Phillips squared to bunt. I make the comment to my friends, that Dusty just removed two of his best hitters from the equation and placed the game in the hands of a guy that was an injury replacement. The guy in front of me insisted that you have to bunt in order to remove BP from the double play possibility... As Heisey and Bruce made outs to end the inning, I started thinking about what had just happened and how we could very well see this all season. I was almost sick at the thought of Votto having opportunities taken from him by bad managerial decisions.
    I know a lot of people are talking about his on-base percentage (.308 in 2008), but I like to think more in terms of him his in-scoring position percentage. - Our Beloved Manager

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    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    Heck, if BP strikes out, Votto gets to hit.

    I'd take the K there over the sac bunt, just so Votto can hit.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    When Phillips bunted on Opening Day I was ok with it. Then I thought it over and I was against it. I decided you can't take the bat out of both Phillips' and Votto's hands.

    Then I read the following quote from Dusty after the game (on Fay's blog):

    ďThatís baseball,Ē Baker said. ďIf Brandon hits into a double play . . . we couldnít take a chance on a double play. If Brandon has one fault, itís hitting into double plays. He hits the ball hard on the ground.Ē

    This quote caused me heartburn.

    The Reds have decided that with Choo leading off and Votto hitting third, the man to hit second is Phillips. He will therefore bat with a man on first and Votto on deck - very often.

    Does that mean Brandon will be constantly bunting for fear of the DP? Isn't Phillips one of the team's best hitters? Why put him in a batting slot that clearly gives rise to the DP possibility?

    This all may be moot with the Ludwick injury. Phillips may hit fourth now. But frankly, it may be a better spot for Brandon. Heisey and Cozart aren't as good as Phillips, but they don't create the DP risk with Choo on first base.

    Who needs a second place hitter who gives the manager double play jitters?

    We saw yesterday the strategy against the Reds this year. Pitch to Choo, pitch around Votto, go after everyone else. The Reds have to put "everyone else" in the place that will lead to the most success.
    It's important to remember everything in a couple of contexts.

    (1) Every quote from Dusty Baker regarding his logic on a decision is good for one day and one day only. Tomorrow he may very well make a decision that contradicts what he just said. So I don't think we should worry that he will "always" be doing one thing or another.

    (2) Even beyond Dusty's ability to change his mind on general strategy concepts, this was a more specialized scenario where there was not just one man on, but two. And a sacrifice bunt didn't just put a player "in scoring position" but in a position where they didn't even need a hit to score him. Beyond that, because it was in the 8th inning and Chapman was already loose and coming in regardless, it made sense to play for just one run as opposed to playing for a bigger inning. Bunting runners to 2nd and 3rd may have lessened the chances at a multi-run inning, but increased the chances at a single run inning. Even considering that it meant Votto wouldn't get a chance to bat.
    When people say that I donít know what Iím talking about when it comes to sports or writing, I think: Man, you should see me in the rest of my life.
    ---Joe Posnanski

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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    Quote Originally Posted by Nasty_Boy View Post
    I was sitting at the game yesterday and was pretty ticked off when Phillips squared to bunt. I make the comment to my friends, that Dusty just removed two of his best hitters from the equation and placed the game in the hands of a guy that was an injury replacement. The guy in front of me insisted that you have to bunt in order to remove BP from the double play possibility... As Heisey and Bruce made outs to end the inning, I started thinking about what had just happened and how we could very well see this all season. I was almost sick at the thought of Votto having opportunities taken from him by bad managerial decisions.
    Agreed the guys I was talking to around me agreed with the decision to bunt as he did it...because they thought Votto would be able to hit. I told them no way they let Votto hit in this situation and if Heisey doesn't get it done they will bring a lefty in to face Bruce. They agreed with me aftewards of course. I just don't get why you want to take the bat out of your two best hitters hands. I know the dp was a possibility and the Phillips and Votto were o fer, but if I'm going to lose I want to do it with those two.

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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    Bunting runners to 2nd and 3rd may have lessened the chances at a multi-run inning, but increased the chances at a single run inning. Even considering that it meant Votto wouldn't get a chance to bat.
    Here's the thing, you get Votto a chance to hit there, odds are he's extending the inning one way or the other.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    It's important to remember everything in a couple of contexts.

    (1) Every quote from Dusty Baker regarding his logic on a decision is good for one day and one day only. Tomorrow he may very well make a decision that contradicts what he just said. So I don't think we should worry that he will "always" be doing one thing or another.

    (2) Even beyond Dusty's ability to change his mind on general strategy concepts, this was a more specialized scenario where there was not just one man on, but two. And a sacrifice bunt didn't just put a player "in scoring position" but in a position where they didn't even need a hit to score him. Beyond that, because it was in the 8th inning and Chapman was already loose and coming in regardless, it made sense to play for just one run as opposed to playing for a bigger inning. Bunting runners to 2nd and 3rd may have lessened the chances at a multi-run inning, but increased the chances at a single run inning. Even considering that it meant Votto wouldn't get a chance to bat.
    Agreed on both points, but the second one is key. They were giving Heisey a chance to plate a run with a sac fly -- or a walk -- or a soft ground ball -- or a ground ball toward a gap -- or an error -- or a wild pitch -- or a passed ball. In that scenario, it was the eighth inning of a tie game and it was leading to a bases-loaded, one-out opportunity. Sorry, you have to do that.

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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Heck, if BP strikes out, Votto gets to hit.

    I'd take the K there over the sac bunt, just so Votto can hit.
    See this is one thing I don't understand. Whats the difference in walking Votto with a runner on 2nd and pitching to him with a runner on first? The result is the same, Votto can end any game with one swing. He is one of the few guys that other teams have to legitimately fear doing that so who's to say a Phillips K wouldn't result in a walk anyways?
    Quote Originally Posted by moewan View Post
    Barmaid to patron "Sir you are slurring, I am going to have to cut you off"

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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Here's the thing, you get Votto a chance to hit there, odds are he's extending the inning one way or the other.
    But that's not true.

    As great as Joey is, he still makes outs more often than he gets on base.

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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve4192 View Post
    But that's not true.

    As great as Joey is, he still makes outs more often than he gets on base.

    It's close enough true to be almost true.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    If Votto fails, he fails... I'm taking my chances with him at the plate. I cannot think of the last time I witnessed an opposing manager take the bat out of their best player's hands.
    I know a lot of people are talking about his on-base percentage (.308 in 2008), but I like to think more in terms of him his in-scoring position percentage. - Our Beloved Manager

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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    It comes down to this, would your rather have Phillips hitting there or Heisey? If Brandon bunts, then Votto gets walked and Heisey bats. Heck, even if DatDude hits into a double play, they still walk Votto to get to Heisey.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.


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