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Thread: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

  1. #31
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    I've liked the idea of Bruce hitting second since he came up. I love power in the two slot. Love it.

    Hitting infront of Votto, he'd be seeing way more fastballs too.
    This is the best move, particularly now with Ludwick down. Move Phillips to the four hole and go with it. You might find lightning in a bottle.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

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  4. #32
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    With the personel on the team, and if he wouldn't hit Bruce at second, I have no problem with Phillips there. Here's the catch. You have to let him hit like Phillips. I want guys to hit like they are able to hit, wherever they are in the lineup.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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  6. #33
    Matt's Dad RANDY IN INDY's Avatar
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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    I think Bruce would flourish in the 2 hole. Tony Perez he is not.
    Talent is God Given: be humble.
    Fame is man given: be thankful.
    Conceit is self given: be careful.

    John Wooden

  7. #34
    On the brink wolfboy's Avatar
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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    I hate getting worked up over things this early in the season, but this one infuriated me. Like Raisor, I absolutely HATE the sac bunt in all but a few select scenarios. As soon as Brandon came up, I was just hoping and hoping that Dusty would be smart enough to not have him bunt. It seemed painfully obvious that the sac bunt not only deprived Phillips of an at bat, but also deprived Votto of anything other than a walk. It also seemed painfully obvious that the inning rested on Heisey's shoulders because Bruce was gonna get a left hander with two outs if Heisey didn't deliver. I know it's a long season, and I know that things like this tend to even out over the long term; however, I'm absolutely mortified that we'll end up behind someone else in the division because Dusty occasionally puts his players in a position to fail.
    How do we know he's not Mel Torme?

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  9. #35
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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfboy View Post
    I hate getting worked up over things this early in the season, but this one infuriated me. Like Raisor, I absolutely HATE the sac bunt in all but a few select scenarios. As soon as Brandon came up, I was just hoping and hoping that Dusty would be smart enough to not have him bunt. It seemed painfully obvious that the sac bunt not only deprived Phillips of an at bat, but also deprived Votto of anything other than a walk. It also seemed painfully obvious that the inning rested on Heisey's shoulders because Bruce was gonna get a left hander with two outs if Heisey didn't deliver. I know it's a long season, and I know that things like this tend to even out over the long term; however, I'm absolutely mortified that we'll end up behind someone else in the division because Dusty occasionally puts his players in a position to fail.
    Issue with the sac bunt is the hitter. If a bad or fair hitter, ok, bunt. If a good or excellent hitter, don't.

    And if the bunt causes Votto or Choo to be walked, don't.

    That would be my rule.

  10. #36
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    If Dusty is going to bunt Choo over regularly, I'd just assume use Cozart in the 2 slot.

    Cozart is an out machine anyway.
    But, if you're going to have a 2 hole hitter who's bunting a bunch...Heisey might be the better option. He's probably the best bunter on the team.
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

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    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    But, if you're going to have a 2 hole hitter who's bunting a bunch...Heisey might be the better option. He's probably the best bunter on the team.
    But he doesn't play SS.

    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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  13. #38
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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    Oh no, he is going to bring up productive outs. According to baseball-reference.com, a productive out is moving any runner along with no outs or scoring a runner while making the second out of the inning. In 2012 Chris Heisey had 38 such opportunities and was successful a whopping 6 times, or 16% of the time. So much for the talk that it is a piece of cake to get a man home from third with less than 2 outs. I believe that includes sac bunts. Taking them out of the equation, Heisey was 3 for 5 in that category, drops him down to a 9% success rate. That's not a layup. That's a shot from half court with time running out at the end of the quarter.
    Joey Votto led the league in intentional walks while missing about one-third of the season. Among his league-leading walk total was probably a good number of unintentional intentional walks. If opposing managers are trying so hard to not let Joey Votto beat them; then shouldn't the Reds' manager be trying to get Votto into as many of those situations as possible?
    Last edited by texasdave; 04-02-2013 at 10:27 AM.
    Zero chance the Reds miss the playoffs!

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    remdog (04-02-2013)

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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    Quote Originally Posted by puca View Post
    Not really when you consider Heisey hits into his fair share of DPs and also Ks at a prodigious rate. Not a layup at all.
    Heisey has hit into 12 DP's in his 913 career ABs. Phillips hasn't had a SEASON that low since 2005.

    I do agree with you though that Heisey's strikeouts are definitely a factor here. That is really what makes this debatable.

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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    Quote Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_ View Post
    But, if you're going to have a 2 hole hitter who's bunting a bunch...Heisey might be the better option. He's probably the best bunter on the team.
    FWIW, I expect Heisey to bat second now that Ludwick is out. Who knows, he has talent and experience. Maybe it will work out.

    Heisey is not as good a hitter as Phillips but IMO he fits the second spot better in some ways. Should be fewer DPs, bunt makes more sense with Chris who bunts and runs so well.

    Chris just needs to make more contact and stop with the over aggressive swinging at everything. Should be easy enough, LOL.

  17. #41
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    FWIW, I expect Heisey to bat second now that Ludwick is out. Who knows, he has talent and experience. Maybe it will work out.

    Heisey is not as good a hitter as Phillips but IMO he fits the second spot better in some ways. Should be fewer DPs, bunt makes more sense with Chris who bunts and runs so well.

    Chris just needs to make more contact and stop with the over aggressive swinging at everything. Should be easy enough, LOL.
    I don't disagree with any of that. But FWIW, I'm surprised Heisey didn't take more time in that last AB of his. He was clearly having some issue with his eye. Dust, dirt, a contact....whatever. But in that situation, or heck ANYTIME you're at bat, you've got to be able to see clearly. You could easily tell he was struggling to keep his right eye open. I kept yelling at my computer "CALL TIME!!!". :O)
    2014 predictions:
    99-63 WS champs (Cards take 2nd WC, Mil 3rd, Pit 4th, Chi 5th)
    Bruce/Votto neck and neck MVP race (neither takes it)
    Bailey CYA winner
    Hamilton ROY & GG

  18. #42
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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier Red View Post
    It's important to remember everything in a couple of contexts.

    (1) Every quote from Dusty Baker regarding his logic on a decision is good for one day and one day only. Tomorrow he may very well make a decision that contradicts what he just said. So I don't think we should worry that he will "always" be doing one thing or another.

    (2) Even beyond Dusty's ability to change his mind on general strategy concepts, this was a more specialized scenario where there was not just one man on, but two. And a sacrifice bunt didn't just put a player "in scoring position" but in a position where they didn't even need a hit to score him. Beyond that, because it was in the 8th inning and Chapman was already loose and coming in regardless, it made sense to play for just one run as opposed to playing for a bigger inning. Bunting runners to 2nd and 3rd may have lessened the chances at a multi-run inning, but increased the chances at a single run inning. Even considering that it meant Votto wouldn't get a chance to bat.
    I agree. Had there been execution on any one of the many opportunities that presented themselves these conversations wouldn't be happening because the Reds would've been in the win column.

    Having said that, I do agree that if the 2-hole is going to bunt a lot this season...I would prefer it be someone other than Phillips in that slot, for several reasons.

  19. #43
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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    the bunt play seemed extra worse to me since heisey is there instead of ludwick. yes ludwick could strike out also but i still like my chances with him there.

  20. #44
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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    There has to be a concerted effort to get Votto a meaningful at bat as often as possible. I wouldn't do anything that made it more likely Votto would get walked.

    While I love debates about strategy and the kinds of discussions last night's game can stimulate, a large part of me feels like tomorrow can't get here fast enough.
    This is by far my least favorite day of the season. It feels like a whole extra offseason.
    Award Winning Baseball Player

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  22. #45
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Batting Orders, Bunting, and Dusty

    Quote Originally Posted by bigredmechanism View Post
    This is by far my least favorite day of the season. It feels like a whole extra offseason.
    especially after a loss
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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