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Thread: Ludwick to 15 day DL; surgery set for Wednesday

  1. #61
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    Re: Ludwick injury - dislocated shoulder

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    This is incredible. The players are literally never to blame, are they?

    The Reds played a 12 inning game today and had 3 hits. THREE hits in 12 innings. They didn't have a single run scoring hit. Do we blame the players? Nah, it's Dusty's fault!

    Pretty sure Votto had a guy on 3rd with less than 2 outs at one point tonight and failed to get him home. I say we spend 5 pages discussing that.
    We actually had 3 hits in 13 innings. Only 1 hit after the 3rd inning. Believe it or not, we have had only 3 hits in three of our last six opening day games.

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  3. #62
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    Re: Ludwick injury - dislocated shoulder

    Quote Originally Posted by 5TimeWSChamps View Post
    The problem is, is that the exact same problems that plagued the 2012 Reds have already reared their ugly heads in 2013.

    It's obvious no progress has been made with certain players, and taking the bat out of your players that actually give you a chance to score runs is ridiculous.
    Oh my God. It was one game!
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  5. #63
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    Re: Ludwick injury - dislocated shoulder

    If taking the bat out of Votto's hands is the difference for this team, then they have no business being talked about for the postseason. Just pitch around him 75% of the time and the Reds are cooked I guess.

    Controversial? Sure. Questionable? Maybe. But I wonder how everyone would've reacted if BP rolled a pair, as he has been known to do in the past.

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  7. #64
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    Re: Ludwick injury - dislocated shoulder

    Quote Originally Posted by 5TimeWSChamps View Post
    Unfortunately the manager was still the same. Still cannot fathom how he thought it was a good idea to bunt with his #2 batter, thus taking the bat out of the best hitter in baseball.

    Absolutely fireable offense
    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    If taking the bat out of Votto's hands is the difference for this team, then they have no business being talked about for the postseason. Just pitch around him 75% of the time and the Reds are cooked I guess.

    Controversial? Sure. Questionable? Maybe. But I wonder how everyone would've reacted if BP rolled a pair, as he has been known to do in the past.
    People would have complained if Brandon grounded into a double play. No doubt about that. But, that being said, I still don't take the bat out of Joey Votto's hands. Ever.

    NOTE: I didn't quote the top quote but it just popped up into this post. Odd.
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  8. #65
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    Re: Ludwick injury - dislocated shoulder

    Quote Originally Posted by 5TimeWSChamps View Post
    False. Not one Manager in baseball would voluntarily take the bat out of Joey Votto's hands except for one
    Well, point of fact, there presently is only one manager in MLB with the ability to take the bat out of Joey Votto's hand. That point makes it hard to make a broader point. Just saying.
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  10. #66
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    Re: Ludwick injury - dislocated shoulder

    The only time I can stomach sac bunts is when it's the pitcher doing it.
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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  12. #67
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    Re: Ludwick injury - dislocated shoulder

    The run expectancy is higher bases loaded with 1 out than 1st and 2nd with 0 outs. Especially when you need only one run I don't see how you can bash the move. Heisey just flat out didn't get the job done. Don't know how you can absolve the players on this one. Dusty goes with numbers gets crushed, goes with gut gets crushed. Winning is truly only thing that avoids critics for a manager.

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    Re: Ludwick injury - dislocated shoulder

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    This is incredible. The players are literally never to blame, are they?

    The Reds played a 12 inning game today and had 3 hits. THREE hits in 12 innings. They didn't have a single run scoring hit. Do we blame the players? Nah, it's Dusty's fault!

    Pretty sure Votto had a guy on 3rd with less than 2 outs at one point tonight and failed to get him home. I say we spend 5 pages discussing that.
    Of course players have some fault in this. The manager has to put the players in the best situation possible as well. Chances are that Votto wouldn't have gotten a hit anyway, but they're better than relying on Chris Heisey and Jay Bruce in big situations.

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    Re: Ludwick injury - dislocated shoulder

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    OPS

    2011

    Heisey (.797)
    Stubbs (.686)

    2012

    Heisey (.715)
    Stubbs (.610)

    Just like it... except those 110 points difference.
    They're both low-contact / speed guys -- roughly 1 win players when you factor in the defensive differences between the two.

    And it's also worth noting that Heisey, for his career, has a massive split in effectiveness PH (career .850) v. starting (career .729).
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    Re: Ludwick injury - dislocated shoulder

    Quote Originally Posted by RadfordVA View Post
    The run expectancy is higher bases loaded with 1 out than 1st and 2nd with 0 outs. Especially when you need only one run I don't see how you can bash the move. Heisey just flat out didn't get the job done. Don't know how you can absolve the players on this one. Dusty goes with numbers gets crushed, goes with gut gets crushed. Winning is truly only thing that avoids critics for a manager.
    You're fighting a losing battle. I'm neither a Dusty apologist nor hater, but it's unreasonable to blame this loss on him. The argument against bunting Phillips suggests that Phillips would, at minimum, get on base to set up Votto who would then have the opportunity to drive in runs -- as opposed to bunting to give Heisey a shot with runners on second and third with less than 2 outs, opening up many scoring possibilities that don't require a base hit.

    The problem I see with this is: If Dusty let Phillips hit, who's to say Brandon doesn't decide to try to drive the ball the other way as he is known to do in that scenario and end up grounding out to second, moving the runners to second and third anyway - or perhaps into a double play? If he moves the runners to 2nd and 3rd, avoiding the DP, then Scioscia walks Votto just the same.

    Additionally - did you pay attention to Brandon at the plate yesterday? It was as if he couldn't even see the ball. Paul should have been picked off second base because Phillips couldn't make contact trying to bunt a waist-high fastball right over the heart of the plate. He looked out of sorts in every plate appearance - yet many believe he should have been asked to swing away.

    It's not like Votto was looking like himself at the plate either. Fact is, nobody was in the zone. 3 for 42. Let that sink in...and then explain to me again why you support the argument that the Reds should have played for 2 hits in that situation (from players who went a combined 0 for 9 in the game) rather than a sac fly.
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    Re: Ludwick injury - dislocated shoulder

    Quote Originally Posted by edabbs44 View Post
    If taking the bat out of Votto's hands is the difference for this team, then they have no business being talked about for the postseason. Just pitch around him 75% of the time and the Reds are cooked I guess.

    Controversial? Sure. Questionable? Maybe. But I wonder how everyone would've reacted if BP rolled a pair, as he has been known to do in the past.
    I'm not questioning the decision though I probably would have made a different one. I personally would never take the bat out of Votto's hands or even BPs hands. Those are the veteran players you are depending on leading you offensively.

    One thing I will point out, if you are so afraid of BP hitting into a double play with a runner on first then maybe he isn't such a great fit in the #2 spot of the batting order.

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  20. #72
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    Re: Ludwick injury - dislocated shoulder

    Quote Originally Posted by RadfordVA View Post
    The run expectancy is higher bases loaded with 1 out than 1st and 2nd with 0 outs. Especially when you need only one run I don't see how you can bash the move. Heisey just flat out didn't get the job done. Don't know how you can absolve the players on this one. Dusty goes with numbers gets crushed, goes with gut gets crushed. Winning is truly only thing that avoids critics for a manager.
    Unfortunately run expectancy doesn't take into account who is at bat.

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  22. #73
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    Re: Ludwick injury - dislocated shoulder

    Quote Originally Posted by Cant Touch This View Post
    You're fighting a losing battle. I'm neither a Dusty apologist nor hater, but it's unreasonable to blame this loss on him. The argument against bunting Phillips suggests that Phillips would, at minimum, get on base to set up Votto who would then have the opportunity to drive in runs -- as opposed to bunting to give Heisey a shot with runners on second and third with less than 2 outs, opening up many scoring possibilities that don't require a base hit.

    The problem I see with this is: If Dusty let Phillips hit, who's to say Brandon doesn't decide to try to drive the ball the other way as he is known to do in that scenario and end up grounding out to second, moving the runners to second and third anyway - or perhaps into a double play? If he moves the runners to 2nd and 3rd, avoiding the DP, then Scioscia walks Votto just the same.

    Additionally - did you pay attention to Brandon at the plate yesterday? It was as if he couldn't even see the ball. Paul should have been picked off second base because Phillips couldn't make contact trying to bunt a waist-high fastball right over the heart of the plate. He looked out of sorts in every plate appearance - yet many believe he should have been asked to swing away.

    It's not like Votto was looking like himself at the plate either. Fact is, nobody was in the zone. 3 for 42. Let that sink in...and then explain to me again why you support the argument that the Reds should have played for 2 hits in that situation (from players who went a combined 0 for 9 in the game) rather than a sac fly.
    It would have taken 1 hit, not 2 to score the run and of all the Reds it is Joey Votto and Brandon Phillips that I would most want up there with the game on the line. The bat was taken out of both of their hands, and I wouldn't have done that. I don't blame the loss on Dusty though, Heisey needs to come through in that situation regardless and if he doesn't Bruce needs to pick him up.

    But it is only 1 game of many.

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  24. #74
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    Re: Ludwick injury - dislocated shoulder

    One game and some are already calling for Baker's head.

    Yay, Redszone.

    Methinks this thread will be revisited when the Reds win the division.
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  25. #75
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    Re: Ludwick injury - dislocated shoulder

    And we're really losing sight of the real issue -- the Reds just lost their #4 hitter and a huge part of their offense from last season. Ludwick's numbers are going to be very, very difficult to even come close to replacing with the current options the team has.
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