Let's see if I have this right, then:
Clay Buchholz-- could you see where there might be confusion among curve, change, and slider?
Bronson Arroyo-- could you see where there might be confusion between his offspeed pitches?
Jake Peavy-- could you see where there might be confusion between his offspeed pitches (particularly his curve and slider)?
Last edited by Scrap Irony; 04-07-2013 at 04:37 PM.
I'm learning new stuff in this thread so feel feel to enlighten me.
But what determines whether a ball is marked a slider or a curveball or whatever in your charts Scrap?
redsfandan (04-09-2013)
Not really. Every now and again, the change is near the slider, but not too often. The Curveball is off all by itself in yellow with what are a few pitches likely misidentified. The curves are yellow, in their own grouping. The sliders are lighter red, mostly in their own grouping, the change ups are blue, grouped among the fastballs.Originally Posted by Scrap Irony
Let's see if I have this right, then:
Clay Buchholz-- could you see where there might be confusion among curve, change, and slider?
No. The change ups are on the left side of 0, the curves are on the right side of 0. Also, this isn't the right chart. This is the one you want.
Bronson Arroyo-- could you see where there might be confusion between his offspeed pitches?
Wrong chart again. With Peavy, yes. You are likely seeing sliders, curves and slurves in there. Most of his sliders are separated from most of his curves. Then there is a little that blend together. Those are probably slurves. Let's also note that his slider has a ton of horizontal movement. Most guys aren't getting that. Perhaps an indication that even his "slider" is more slurve than slider. They are both also close enough in velo that it makes it tougher. "Slider" is 79-86. Curve is 76-82. At that point you probably want to look at the RPM of the ball and the spin angle of the ball. Brooksbaseball doesn't supply those, but if you get the PFX data yourself, it is out there. The spin angle of the curveball should be 25-50 or so. The slider is in that 150-200 range.
Jake Peavy-- could you see where there might be confusion between his offspeed pitches (particularly his curve and slider)?
Here is the right chart for Peavy.
Last edited by dougdirt; 04-07-2013 at 05:22 PM.
Long story short, then, you agree that pitchers who tend to throw "slurvy" sliders (also "loopy") may have sliders that look like/ act like curveballs?
I agree that they can.
I will also say that I have never seen Cingrani throw such a pitch in 800 some odd pitches before Thursday and that the small number of sliders we have seen on Pitch F/X from him are absolutely pure sliders and nothing near a slurve.
I wouldn't trade Cingrani for Shelby Miller. He's that good.
Also, Cingrani was vastly underrated by publications like Baseball America entering this season. BA had him ranked as the No. 82 overall prospect. Please. His 2012 numbers were absolutely off-the-charts ridiculous and that garnered the No. 82 ranking? Guaranteed BA would like a mulligan on that one.
How many pitches do they have in pitch fx? 20?
His scouting report mentions a "loopy slider." Cingrani himself said that his main focus was trying to improve his slider by throwing it different ways including throwing across his body with his arm in front of his face. He also mentioned, in the interview after the game, that he focused only on his fastball and threw a few changeups and sliders.
You said curves and sliders look nothing like changeups.
You also said that some sliders can look like curves, especially slurvy ones.
My scouting friend (as mentioned far above the posts about this pitch and early in either this thread or that night's milb game thread) talked of a plus "slurve" from Cingrani.
The only reasonable alternative, then, is that Cingrani indeed threw a quality off-speed pitch. (One that I've seen before, I'll mention again.) And it wasn't a new pitch. It was a slider.
More importantly, it was good.
Perhaps in his next start, he'll throw another. Or even two or three of them. Point is, Dude's got three pitches. He only needs to refine those pitches.
Somebody shoot me a pm when we start discussing Tony Cingrani again.
"When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"
redsfandan (04-09-2013)
He has 120 pitches, though over 100 of them are fastballs.
Maybe Cingrani did throw a slurvy pitch there. I don't know. But I do know that it surely wasn't a pure slider and that it isn't the same slider he was throwing last year. The movement and velocity are both different than the slider he was throwing last year.
No new news here: Cingrani IL Pitcher of the Week.
Tony Cingrani, Louisville
(1-0, 0.00 ERA, 1 G, 1 GS, 6 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 HR, 0 HBP, 1 BB, 14 K)
It was also an impressive Triple-A Baseball debut for Louisville left-hander Tony Cingrani, who was given the Opening Day assignment for the Bats against Toledo. He responded by striking out the first seven batters he faced and exited the game after tossing 6.0 no-hit innings. In fact, Cingrani was perfect until he walked leadoff man Jordan Lennerton in the 6th. Cingrani struck out 14 of the 19 Mud Hens who came to bat against him. Toledo tied the game 3-3 in the 9th inning (costing Cingrani the win), but Felix Perez delivered a walk-off home run for the Bats. Cingrani fell just one strikeout short of matching the Louisville franchise record.
23-year-old Tony Cingrani is in just his second full season of professional baseball. He was the Cincinnati 2012 Minor League Pitcher of the Year after going 10-4 with a 1.73 ERA between Class A Advanced Bakersfield and Double-A Pensacola. Cingrani is a native of New Lenox, Illinois.
There would have been a riot had he not been given the award. Pitchforks and fire.
bellhead (04-08-2013)
Doug?
If he dominates over the next month like this, then how long before we start hearing about him in Nati?
It's pretty amusing watching the two most stubborn posters on this site (both of whom have never been wrong) go at it.
Imma stay and watch this.
redsfandan (04-09-2013)
I imagine that regardless of how well he pitches, it would only be actual buzz if Leake is struggling.
Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.
It is already happening. I have heard callers to Doc Rogers, Lance McAllister and Mo Egger already wanting Cingrani up here.
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