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Thread: Cingrani...

  1. #196
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    You're our in-house minor-league expert. You're not a national guy throwing darts against a board. A lot of us, myself included, expect a lot out of you when it comes to Reds prospects. You are not going to be perfect. You are going to miss. But less than a year ago you had Cingrani ranked behind some questionable guys, and it's not revisionist history on my part because I questioned you at the time about Cingrani not being ranked high enough by you, IMO.

    I'm not trying to embarrass you and I don't think you should be extremely embarrassed or anything. I just said I bet you're a "bit embarrassed" about your Cingrani ranking 9-10 months ago when you were still following in line with all the national guys and saying he would be nothing more than a reliever at the MLB level (almost dismissing those of us that said he had TOR potential). I'm glad you're not embarrassed -- not even a "bit" embarrassed -- and it wasn't my intention to try and embarrass you.
    He improved thus his ranking improved. I don't get why you keep harping on this.
    "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"

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  3. #197
    Member membengal's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Because the Cingrani discussion didn't start last summer. It was raging well before that. And a lot of people on here had him ranked a lot higher by that point in time (and much earlier than that point in time). Doug dug in, as it were, even as late as the all-star break last year. I am guessing that is what Blitz is referring to.
    Last edited by membengal; 04-12-2013 at 07:17 PM.

  4. #198
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    nevermind

  5. #199
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    Because the Cingrani discussion didn't start last summer. It was raging well before that. And a lot of people on here had him ranked a lot higher by that point in time (and much earlier than that point in time). Doug dug in, as it were, even as late as the all-star break last year. I am guessing that is what Blitz is referring to.
    Correct.

  6. #200
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    Re: Cingrani...

    I guess I just don't get the need to constantly pick out incorrect assessments of someone who brings so much to the site. We are talking about someone who sees more tape and live action of the Red's youngsters than probably 99% of the people who log into this site.

    He is in essence a scout, scouts are occasionally wrong. Get over the fact that he did not jump right on board with you and appreciate his contribution instead of constantly crucifying him.
    "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"

  7. #201
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    Re: Cingrani...

    How many more starts do guys think it would be before the Reds consider switching Cingrani and Leake?

    If Leake has two more starts like his first two, and Cingrani continues his path do you think they consider making the change 10 days from now?

  8. #202
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by bubbachunk View Post
    I guess I just don't get the need to constantly pick out incorrect assessments of someone who brings so much to the site. We are talking about someone who sees more tape and live action of the Red's youngsters than probably 99% of the people who log into this site.

    He is in essence a scout, scouts are occasionally wrong. Get over the fact that he did not jump right on board with you and appreciate his contribution instead of constantly crucifying him.
    doug has value for the board, but it's not as a scout. Nor is it as some sort of super prospect guru. He's a fan who's got time to watch the game/ video, a few "ins" and scout phone numbers, and the ability to string a couple sentences together without embarrassing himself.

    If that sounds like jealousy, it's not. He saw a need and filled it. Good for him. In the internet age, every team needed a prescence on the net for prospects. His decision to create a web site was a fantastic one.

    But his analysis is questionable at best. He's struck out on an awful lot of players others on Redszone, with more limited time, inclination, and resources, nailed. (I can show my work if you'd like, but doug's been clear that he doesn't believe in referencing previous opinions as anything more than a "gotcha game", so I won't unless asked.)

    I like that he has strong opinions. I like that he has/is a good resource for Reds' fans to read about specific players. I like that he reports on what the far-flung prospects did today.

    But "picking out incorrect assessments" is what we'd do with anyone who happens to write about the Reds and their prospects. We did this to each other well before doug came along. We'll do it if doug decided to leave. We do it to each other for just about everything.

    In other words, we're not picking on doug. We're treating him as one of us. We have a high standard here-- that you show your work, that you have thick enough skin to accept when you're wrong, and that you stand by a certain level of decorum. That's why this board has been as good as it has for as long as it has.

    To expect less than that of a member just because he might have a couple connections in the business smacks of kowtowing. And that's not something Redszone has ever done. Nor, I hope, will it.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  9. #203
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by NeilHamburger View Post
    How many more starts do guys think it would be before the Reds consider switching Cingrani and Leake?

    If Leake has two more starts like his first two, and Cingrani continues his path do you think they consider making the change 10 days from now?
    I think they could deal Leake for Pedro Borbon, stick in Cingrani, and make the team much better.

    I think it will take until at least the middle of May before that happens.

    Part of being a players' manager is the willingness to stick with guys after they've proven ineffectiveness. Baker's earned much praise for his ability to get good years out of veterans seemingly out of gas-- perhaps Leake will surprise.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
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  10. #204
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    Re: Cingrani...

    In other words, we're not picking on doug. We're treating him as one of us. We have a high standard here-- that you show your work, that you have thick enough skin to accept when you're wrong, and that you stand by a certain level of decorum. That's why this board has been as good as it has for as long as it has.

    To expect less than that of a member just because he might have a couple connections in the business smacks of kowtowing. And that's not something Redszone has ever done. Nor, I hope, will it.
    Amen.

  11. #205
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Hmmm, I'm kinda surprised at how little some people think of Doug. I could be wrong but I've always had the impression that, with the obvious exception of time, the requirements for a scout aren't always that high. Doug is probably more qualified than some of the 'official' scouts out there. There are always hits and misses with prospects. Maybe you guys think you can do better. Who knows. I do wonder, though, why you bother to talk to him SO much if you don't value his opinion that much.

    But, when it comes to decurom and respect, imo, he's been showing it, you guys haven't. To be honest when I saw the word 'decorum' I almost laughed. How many of the posts in this thread (and there are some BIG, multi-quote, posts) were devoted to asking and asking and asking again what type of pitch was thrown? It seems like alot of the thread was just rehashing the same question over and over again. It's like a 5 year old that asks the same question again and again and in every different way possible. Can we have a timeout already???

    If it's not spending way too much time constantly asking the same question over and over again then it's constant criticism about an opinion on the ceiling/floor of a prospect or almost talking down to the guy in how you criticize his analysis or insisting on him 'showing his work' when chances are he already has. And, heaven forbid if he misses on a prospect, a player improves and doesn't match an old opinion anymore, or something is phrased the wrong way. Is that the way that you show your appreciation for him sharing his opinion and insight as much as he does? It's not like the questions are ignored or not answered in detail. I probably would've lost my cool at least once. I think a few of you would've as well. But, I don't know if I've ever seen that happen with Doug.

    I don't know, guys, you say you're not picking on Doug but it kinda seems that, instead of a Reds player being the whipping boy of RedsZone, Doug has become the whipping boy. And I just don't get that. I know he's not perfect but I've still got respect for the guy. So, I kinda feel like it might just be better if this thread were locked up. The title of the thread is 'Cingrani ...'. So, it shouldn't be about Doug and how he doesn't do everything you want and in the way you want it.
    Last edited by redsfandan; 04-13-2013 at 11:22 AM.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  12. #206
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    Re: Cingrani...

    For what it's worth, I wasn't trying to defend Doug with my previous post as much vent a little frustration. I, and I bet some others, do think a few of you go overboard with Doug sometimes and it's especially annoying when it derails a thread like this one.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  13. #207
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfandan View Post
    But, when it comes to decurom and respect, imo, he's been showing it, you guys haven't. To be honest when I saw the word 'decorum' I almost laughed. How many of the posts in this thread (and there are some BIG, multi-quote, posts) were devoted to asking and asking and asking again what type of pitch was thrown? It seems like alot of the thread was just rehashing the same question over and over again. It's like a 5 year old that asks the same question again and again and in every different way possible. Can we have a timeout already???
    I didn't ask him what pitch was thrown.

    I told him the pitch was a slider.

    And, as it turns out, I was right.

    You may want to review the thread before commenting.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
    -- Christy Matthewson
    "Show me a good loser and I'll show you an idiot."
    -- Leo Durocher

  14. #208
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    I didn't ask him what pitch was thrown.

    I told him the pitch was a slider.

    And, as it turns out, I was right.

    You may want to review the thread before commenting.
    Personally I agree with him. It was almost unbearable reading all that stuff about "It was a slider." "No it was a curve."

    Doug is wrong sometimes when it comes to prospects. Wow. Shocker
    Tim McCarver: Baseball Quotes
    I remember one time going out to the mound to talk with Bob Gibson. He told me to get back behind the batter, that the only thing I knew about pitching was that it was hard to hit.

  15. #209
    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    I didn't ask him what pitch was thrown.

    I told him the pitch was a slider.

    And, as it turns out, I was right.

    You may want to review the thread before commenting.
    Kinda ironic cuz it sounds like you completely missed my point. I just don't know what to make of some of your posts Scrap. I really don't.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  16. #210
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Cingrani uses a slider grip to throw a pitch that moves like a curveball. It has the velocity of a curveball too. You could call it a slider or a curve and you would be correct either way.

    It is the same kind of deal with Homer Bailey's pitch where he grips it like a split-fingered fastball yet it has the velocity and movement of a changeup.

    A pitching coach would likely classify the pitch based on the grip and wrist motion, while a batter would classify the pitch based on its spin, trajectory and velocity.

    Arguing over the name of the pitch is a waste of time, because Cingrani's success or failure is going to be based on the movement and deceptiveness of the pitch, not the grip or wrist motion.

    Ultimately what matters is how the pitch breaks and its velocity, because that is what fools or doesn't fool the hitter. The batter doesn't swing at the grip.


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