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Thread: Cingrani...

  1. #226
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    So says the video that is just 1:43 long....

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  3. #227
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    So says the video that is just 1:43 long....
    Lol. Very good point.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  4. #228
    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    If you can't make sense of my posts, let me enlighten you about my thought process:

    1. doug was insisting that Cingrani's "new pitch"-- a curve rather than a slider-- would have make him a better prospect, thus he would have ranked him higher.
    2. Cingrai's slider has always had this type of loopy, curve-y break.
    3. Cingrani stated that he didn't throw anything new, just the same old change, slider, and fastball.
    4. Many posters have argued for at least a year and a half that Cingrani has shown three pitches good enough to be a starter. doug has always disagreed.

    Tagging this pitch as the same slider he's always thrown shows doug that he indeed wrong about this prospect. Aside from that, the perception/ philosophy of minor league pitching (prospects have time in the minors to develop poorer pitches and good prospects learn just that as they progress) is important to note.

    Beyond that, it was, IMO, important to show primary source material as more important than the bias of secondary sources and false analysis that is flawed primarily because he wanted to find one answer (Cingrani has improved not because of his slider, but because of a new pitch) over another.

    No expert should ever have that bias. Pointing it out is why we had all those posts. IMO, it was important. If you disagreed, you could have alerted the mods.

    Finally, if you don't know about my posts, ignore them. Or post about the flaw in my thinking. Or send a PM.
    Ya know, this is the problem I have. It seemed to me like you had turned this thread into something personal between you and Doug. If I'm wrong than I apologize. But, it still seems that way.

    The concern Doug has had about his pitches and the possibility that Cingrani could end up in the bullpen sound alot like what Baseball America has said. So, Doug hasn't been a lone voice in that camp. And yet, your focus is on arguing points with Doug that are so trivial that people have said that:

    "Arguing over the name of the pitch is a waste of time ..."

    and

    "It was almost unbearable reading all that stuff about "It was a slider." "No it was a curve."

    Am I wrong to think that you feel that Doug is stubborn about his views on Cingrani? Cuz if that's true, if you do think he's too stubborn, then what's the point of what you're doing?
    Last edited by redsfandan; 04-14-2013 at 04:11 PM.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  5. #229
    Wait... What? Vander's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    What is it about internet forums that turns adult human beings into bickering children?

    I haven't posted at all in this thread (thankfully) so I haven't taken a side. I only want to chime in and say that you both have acted in such an outlandishly childish and stubborn fashion, that even if one of you is proven correct, you'll still end up looking horrible at the end of this.

    Think about this for a second from an outsider's point of view. You have been arguing for pages and pages and pages... On what to call a secondary pitch... From a AAA pitching prospect... And it has gotten so heated that you've been resorting to personal attacks. Is this what adults do?

    Honestly, I think you should both just call the pitch Fred and be done with it, because whatever Fred is, he's pretty awesome (... And yes, I did just personify a pitch).

    Honestly, it's threads like this that make most people stay away from forums like this, and why it took me so long to actually sign up... Yeesh...
    Last edited by Vander; 04-14-2013 at 04:32 PM.

  6. #230
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfandan View Post
    Ya know, this is the problem I have. It seemed to me like you had turned this thread into something personal between you and Doug. If I'm wrong than I apologize. But, it still seems that way.

    The concern Doug has had about his pitches and the possibility that Cingrani could end up in the bullpen sound alot like what Baseball America has said. So, Doug hasn't been a lone voice in that camp. And yet, your focus is on arguing points with Doug that are so trivial that people have said that:

    "Arguing over the name of the pitch is a waste of time ..."

    and

    "It was almost unbearable reading all that stuff about "It was a slider." "No it was a curve."

    Am I wrong to think that you feel that Doug is stubborn about his views on Cingrani? Cuz if that's true, if you do think he's too stubborn, then what's the point of what you're doing?
    Again, it's not just about what to call the pitch. Were that it, I'd agree that this was a colossal waste of time.

    That is a symptom of a much larger disease.

    doug has opinions. That's fine. We all have strong opinions.

    When confronted with an obvious truth, however, he continued (and continues) to ignore it in favor of his own narrative.

    That's a fatal flaw in a prospect guru-- or anyone else that claims to be unbiased in their analysis.

    John Sickels didn't do that. Nor did any other prospect guru. And, if they had, I'd point out their flaws in analysis as well.

    That isn't, IMO, childish, immature, a waste, or unbearable. It may be uncomfortable. It may be difficult. It may mean posters here will have to reassess their own bias and analysis.

    I have my own bias, obviously. I've made mistakes as well. And, if I've erred here, I'm sure the mods will tell me. If you don't like it, send me a PM. I'm a big boy; I don't need to apologize for my stance (IMO), but I will discuss it all day, if need be.

    Finally, if you don't like it, put me on ignore. That's what that function is for. But I'm not going to stop pointing out logical errors and poor analysis technique when it comes to Reds' prospects, their major league team, or anything else, for that matter. I don't allow it in my personal life, I don't allow my students to use it, and I won't accept it on my favorite internet site.

    I'm going to say this again because it seems to get lost in the shuffle. We have a high degree of expectations on this site. Among them, that we be intellectually honest. If you can point out my own errors in logic, feel free. We can look at them together. I'm going to do the same with your posts. In this case, doug wasn't being intellectually honest. I called him on it.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  7. #231
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    I promise you that I am being honest.

    I also showed you that JJ Cooper agreed it looked like a curve. He also said that for that reason, scouts told him to call it a breaking ball, not a slider or a curve since there actually is confusion on the pitch. Fangraphs will have an article coming out tomorrow on Cingrani. The writer also notes the new curveball Cingrani is throwing.

  8. #232
    Member redsfandan's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post

    ...

    I have my own bias, obviously. I've made mistakes as well. And, if I've erred here, I'm sure the mods will tell me. If you don't like it, send me a PM. I'm a big boy; I don't need to apologize for my stance (IMO), but I will discuss it all day, if need be.

    Finally, if you don't like it, put me on ignore. That's what that function is for. But I'm not going to stop pointing out logical errors and poor analysis technique when it comes to Reds' prospects, their major league team, or anything else, for that matter. I don't allow it in my personal life, I don't allow my students to use it, and I won't accept it on my favorite internet site.

    I'm going to say this again because it seems to get lost in the shuffle. We have a high degree of expectations on this site. Among them, that we be intellectually honest. If you can point out my own errors in logic, feel free. We can look at them together. I'm going to do the same with your posts. In this case, doug wasn't being intellectually honest. I called him on it.
    Oh I think people understand that you'll discuss it all day. I don't know how many understand why though. I know there are a few others that have a problem with Dougs viewpoint. But, they're not going on and on and on and on about it.

    I'm not going to put you on ignore, Scrap. We've gotten along in the past and I think you've made good posts. But, your love affair with Doug is, well, who wants to see a thread derailed by something like that?

    Yes, there are expectations on this site. You mentioned one of them before. Decorum! (hint hint) I'm afraid that this thread will just turn into you going on and on arguing with Doug about things that alot of people don't care about, him adding another post or two, and you still going on and on until the thread is just you. That sounds like great reading to me. It's like what Vander said, this isn't exactly the best of RedsZone (to put it mildly). And while you might feel that you're accomplishing something, more than a few people have commented otherwise.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  9. #233
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Enough. Let's talk about the next starting pitcher of the Reds, Anthony Cingrani.
    Go BLUE!!!

  10. #234
    Wait... What? Vander's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    *sigh*.... I'm only responding to your post, Scrap, because you say you're a teacher. As a teacher myself, your argument has become very troubling to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    That is a symptom of a much larger disease.

    doug has opinions. That's fine. We all have strong opinions.

    When confronted with an obvious truth, however, he continued (and continues) to ignore it in favor of his own narrative.
    Nowhere in this post am I going to touch on the specifics of your argument, because honestly, it's unimportant. But a few things really bothered me in this post and show that you're not really getting what some people have been saying in this thread. The bolded is a perfect example.

    You seem to have a vendetta against Doug because you see him as someone who refuses to admit when he's wrong (going as far as to call it a disease is laying it on a bit thick). Alright, let's assume that you are correct. Where is your end game? One of two things is true of Doug. Either he is capable of admitting when he is wrong, or he is not.

    If he is not, then where is the end game of your argument? You're trying to get someone who never admits to being wrong, to admit that he never admits to being wrong... And that he's wrong because of that... See the problem here? If he is as childish as you claim he is, then is it not equally childish to try to get him to admit to childishness?

    If he is, in fact, capable of admitting wrong-doing, then the bolded words above are untrue: obvious truth. Has it not occurred to you that he may simply... Disagree?...

    In fact, your entire argument with him is on a name. What to call a pitch? Is it a curve, or is it a slider (I still think it's Fred)? You define the pitch by what the pitcher calls it. I see no problem with that. Doug defines it by how he perceives its' movement. I also see no problem with that. Is it possible that you two are just arguing over nothing?

    I'm a big boy; I don't need to apologize for my stance (IMO), but I will discuss it all day, if need be.
    This is not what adults do, Scrap. Adults are capable of seeing that an argument is going nowhere, and that both sides are too dug in. The response is to end it with civility.

    Finally, if you don't like it, put me on ignore. That's what that function is for. But I'm not going to stop pointing out logical errors and poor analysis technique when it comes to Reds' prospects, their major league team, or anything else, for that matter. I don't allow it in my personal life, I don't allow my students to use it, and I won't accept it on my favorite internet site.

    If you can point out my own errors in logic, feel free.
    Any good educator knows that it takes more than logic to sway minds. You must temper logic with understanding, civility and even humor if you want to have impact. You failed to do that. Because of that, you pushed Doug so far onto the defensive that he's never going to see your point no matter what logic is on your side (again, not taking sides. I'm just assuming you're right for the sake of argument). In essence, by being so zealous with your point of view, you prevented that reaction that you sought to elicit. And instead, you've made this thread a personal vendetta for the two of you. My only suggestion is to drop it, because you both have already lost.



    Cingrani is doing some remarkable things this year, so far. He clearly deserves a thread, but at what point is this thread just too derailed to make a comeback? Mods?

  11. #235
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    Re: Cingrani...

    What a strange thread. I don't know why anyone would care what pitch it is and what pitch it's called the only thing that matters is if the guy can get hitters out and he's done that at a great clip. Lets hope it translates when he starts up here.
    Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/ShaneHorning

  12. #236
    Member mdccclxix's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    At least his first start will be against a AAA lineup - Miami.

  13. #237
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by mdccclxix View Post
    At least his first start will be against a AAA lineup - Miami.
    Good point.

  14. #238
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by mdccclxix View Post
    At least his first start will be against a AAA lineup - Miami.
    I hope his curve is working.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  15. #239
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    I hope his curve is working.
    Beat me to it!

    Though I was going to call it Fred.

  16. #240
    Member mdccclxix's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Fred or Fredrick, whatever. Don't call it Bob, though.


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