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Thread: Cingrani...

  1. #271
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Curve, slurve, slider -- does it really matter? It's the evolution of Cingrani's secondary stuff. Many will recall the struggles Homer Bailey had in honing his secondary pitches (gone, for example, is the 12-6 curve he came to the bigs with). Cingrani's secondary stuff will continue to evolve. And chances are it will continue to improve, supplementing what makes him the prime prospect he is -- his extraordinary fastball.

    Didn't see much out his changeup last night.
    In the end it doesn't matter unless you want to talk about it. I find it an intriguing thing that he is gripping a slider and getting the movement he is getting, because most guys gripping the ball like that are getting very different movement than he is. Then I start wondering why it is happening? What is he doing differently to get that much more break on the pitch compared to other guys?

    As for the change up, yeah, it is being thrown 8 times a game so far in both starts. I would like to see that pitch used a little more often. It seems that a lot of young pitchers don't trust the change up as much as the breaking ball, even if scouts tend to think the change up is a lot better than the breaking ball is. Cingrani is said to have a good change up, but he has been hesitant to throw it at times in the past and thus far this year too.

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  3. #272
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Generally speaking, most slurves don't show up quite like this one does. In fact, after talking about it with some other Pitch F/X guys, it may be that Cingrani is getting a true 12-6 action on his breaking ball instead of a more 11-5 or 10-4 like a lot of curveballs or slurves do.
    No, you were right the first time. I've watched every one of Cingrani's pitches with the Reds and he does not have 12-6 action on his breaker. It's a slurve for sure.

  4. #273
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    No, you were right the first time. I've watched every one of Cingrani's pitches with the Reds and he does not have 12-6 action on his breaker. It's a slurve for sure.
    Pitch F/X disagrees with you. The issue is his arm angle. He is not an over the top guy, so his pitch is going to be coming across the zone to begin with, so it is going to not look like it is going 12-6, but that is simply because of the release angle, not anything to do with the spin of the baseball.

    A slurve, on the chart shown on the last page, would be more to the to the left on the chart when compared to other "slurves".

  5. #274
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I love his fastball, I just think he needs more of a mix to get through better line-ups multiple times or to be successful later in the year after the league is getting its second look at him. I'd hate to see the Reds cast a starter aside or get one out of the starting innings routine only to see Cingrani start to struggle in a couple months while the team is left short handed. There is plenty for him to work on in AAA even if the competition may make it difficult to judgw whether or not its working. He's a nice guy to have in reserve right now, but when the other five are healthy, he's in line behind them.
    Don't disagree at all. I'd like to see him have better command of his secondary stuff particularly. A better mix is always desirable. But the fastball is an impressively plus pitch, especially for a left hander. I'm impressed.

  6. #275
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Pitch F/X disagrees with you. The issue is his arm angle. He is not an over the top guy, so his pitch is going to be coming across the zone to begin with, so it is going to not look like it is going 12-6, but that is simply because of the release angle, not anything to do with the spin of the baseball.

    A slurve, on the chart shown on the last page, would be more to the to the left on the chart when compared to other "slurves".
    I'm telling you man, it's a classic slurve (if there is such a thing as a "classic" slurve).

    I could tell as soon as I saw him throw it. Not saying I'm an expert, but I'm 100 percent confident on this one.

  7. #276
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    I'm telling you man, it's a classic slurve (if there is such a thing as a "classic" slurve).

    I could tell as soon as I saw him throw it. Not saying I'm an expert, but I'm 100 percent confident on this one.
    Well, perhaps we are working with a different definition of a slurve.

  8. #277
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Well, perhaps we are working with a different definition of a slurve.
    "Depends on what your definition of the word 'is' is."

  9. #278
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    Re: Cingrani...

    I think he is using a slider grip on the baseball, but the unusual cocked-wrist action causes the pitch to behave just like a curveball once it leaves his hand.

  10. #279
    malingered here too long malcontent's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Even Cingrani no longer thinks it's a slider.

    "I just threw fastballs and some curve balls in there and I just got ahead of them," said Cingrani, who also threw a season-high 110 pitches. "I bared down and got them out. That's what you got to do.

    I'm just relieved that he didn't call them breaking balls.

  11. #280
    Member Old school 1983's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Frankly I could care less if its a curve, slurve, or slider. This is reaching epic joke level. Does it work? Can he control it? Does he have command with it? Can it keep big league batters off balance when mixed with his fastball? Most importantly does it get big league batters out? Can his success continue? These are the things we should care about. Not the definition of one of his secondary pitches. I don't care if he calls it the cabbage ball so long as it is effective.

  12. #281
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    In the end it doesn't matter unless you want to talk about it. I find it an intriguing thing that he is gripping a slider and getting the movement he is getting, because most guys gripping the ball like that are getting very different movement than he is. Then I start wondering why it is happening? What is he doing differently to get that much more break on the pitch compared to other guys?

    As for the change up, yeah, it is being thrown 8 times a game so far in both starts. I would like to see that pitch used a little more often. It seems that a lot of young pitchers don't trust the change up as much as the breaking ball, even if scouts tend to think the change up is a lot better than the breaking ball is. Cingrani is said to have a good change up, but he has been hesitant to throw it at times in the past and thus far this year too.
    Yeah it'll be interesting to see how right handers handle him going forward in regards to the changeup.

  13. #282
    Member Old school 1983's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    In the end it doesn't matter unless you want to talk about it. I find it an intriguing thing that he is gripping a slider and getting the movement he is getting, because most guys gripping the ball like that are getting very different movement than he is. Then I start wondering why it is happening? What is he doing differently to get that much more break on the pitch compared to other guys?

    As for the change up, yeah, it is being thrown 8 times a game so far in both starts. I would like to see that pitch used a little more often. It seems that a lot of young pitchers don't trust the change up as much as the breaking ball, even if scouts tend to think the change up is a lot better than the breaking ball is. Cingrani is said to have a good change up, but he has been hesitant to throw it at times in the past and thus far this year too.
    It'd definitely keep hitters more off balance and help increase the effectiveness of his fastball if he used the change more. It's probably one of those adjustments he will have to make after the league has seen him a few times.

  14. #283
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Latest from Fay on Twitter:

    John Fay ‏@johnfayman 9m
    RT @mjohnsonky Does Cingrani throw anything but a fastball? He won't get very far next time around//Thrown 12.9% slider, 6.1% changes

  15. #284
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    Latest from Fay on Twitter:

    John Fay ‏@johnfayman 9m
    RT @mjohnsonky Does Cingrani throw anything but a fastball? He won't get very far next time around//Thrown 12.9% slider, 6.1% changes
    I am sure that Fay is quoting fangraphs, which used the MLBAM designations from Pitch FX, which are incorrect.

  16. #285
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I am sure that Fay is quoting fangraphs, which used the MLBAM designations from Pitch FX, which are incorrect.
    Incorrect as in sometimes Pitch FX doesn't know how to classify certain pitches?


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