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Thread: Cingrani...

  1. #61
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    So he doesn't know how to throw a pitch he's been throwing for pretty much his entire life?

    Shenanigans, doug.
    Well, he hasn't been throwing it his entire life. And no, he apparently didn't know how to throw much of a slider. Every report on it has said it isn't a good pitch for his entire career.

    The breaking ball that Cingrani was throwing in Louisville resembled no pitch he had thrown in 2012. Not once did I hear a single report that he was throwing a breaking ball in the mid 70's. I saw him throw about 800 pitches last season. I never saw a pitch that looked anything like the breaking ball he was throwing in Louisville. The slider he threw last year wasn't close to the breaking ball he threw last night.

    What I am saying is that the breaking ball he threw in his first start in 2013 wasn't the slider he threw last year and that it moves and has the velocity of a curveball rather than a slider. I am also saying that Tony Cingrani wouldn't be the first pitcher to grip a pitch and try to throw a slider and have it react like a curveball and that may in fact be exactly what is happening here.

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  3. #62
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Well, he hasn't been throwing it his entire life. And no, he apparently didn't know how to throw much of a slider. Every report on it has said it isn't a good pitch for his entire career.
    Wow.

    You really are insisting that Cingrani-- a professional pitcher-- doesn't know how to throw a slider.

    Amazing.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    The breaking ball that Cingrani was throwing in Louisville resembled no pitch he had thrown in 2012. Not once did I hear a single report that he was throwing a breaking ball in the mid 70's. I saw him throw about 800 pitches last season. I never saw a pitch that looked anything like the breaking ball he was throwing in Louisville. The slider he threw last year wasn't close to the breaking ball he threw last night.

    What I am saying is that the breaking ball he threw in his first start in 2013 wasn't the slider he threw last year and that it moves and has the velocity of a curveball rather than a slider. I am also saying that Tony Cingrani wouldn't be the first pitcher to grip a pitch and try to throw a slider and have it react like a curveball and that may in fact be exactly what is happening here.
    Huh.

    I saw that exact pitch more than once last year when Cingrani was pitching. I saw him throw about 110 pitches total. (IIRC, I even commented on it when, last season, you insisted that he was a flash in the pan and/or a reliever because he only had one pitch.)

    It wasn't consistent, but it was there.

    I'll see if I can find the thread.
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  4. #63
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post

    I saw that exact pitch more than once last year when Cingrani was pitching. I saw him throw about 110 pitches total. (IIRC, I even commented on it when, last season, you insisted that he was a flash in the pan and/or a reliever because he only had one pitch.)

    It wasn't consistent, but it was there.

    I'll see if I can find the thread.
    I have never said he was a flash in the pan. I have probably said he needs to use more than one pitch, which he certainly did. There were games where he would throw 80% fastballs.

  5. #64
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Not once did I hear a single report that he was throwing a breaking ball in the mid 70's.
    Then you weren't paying attention.

    From an interview with Cingrani last season on milb.com, about his slider:

    Purpose: I try to throw it as an out-pitch to righties and to lefties, and I usually don't throw an 0-0 slider to a righty; I try to throw it to lefties, but the command is just not there. I usually don't get too many strikes with it. I am trying to build it back up in bullpens and on my side days and hopefully it'll get there.

    Improvement: After striking out nine over six shutout innings to earn his first Double-A win on Friday, Cingrani relayed to MiLB.com's Robert Emrich helpful slider-related advice he received from Pensacola's pitching coach. "[Tom] Brown said one phrase to me and it made my slider start working how it's supposed to work," Cingrani said. "'Come across my face when I throw it.' It was crazy. I've never had command of my slider and today, I didn't throw it in the zone for a strike, but it had the action. It was a good two-strike pitch."

    Grip: My index and middle fingers aren't together when I hold it. I try to get on top of the ball and pull down.

    Speed: Anywhere from 78 to 82. I try to get it up to about 84, but I am still working on it.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I have never said he was a flash in the pan. I have probably said he needs to use more than one pitch, which he certainly did. There were games where he would throw 80% fastballs.
    You said not to trust the numbers, that he profiled as a setup man at best. We argued about this. You insisted that his role wasn't as a starter-- not even a bad one-- because he didn't have three pitches.

    Therefore, he was a flash in the pan. (My words, not yours, but your explanation.)

    Now, he's shown (again) the slider. Perhaps it goes away again. Perhaps it doesn't. Regardless, he's shown he has it. (Again.)
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  7. #66
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by lollipopcurve View Post
    Bullpenner.
    Bullpen or whatever.
    They don't think it be like it is, but it do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Schuler View Post
    He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

  8. #67
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    Then you weren't paying attention.

    From an interview with Cingrani last season on milb.com, about his slider:
    78-82 is a lot different than 74-76, which is where his breaking ball was Thursday.

  9. #68
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    You said not to trust the numbers, that he profiled as a setup man at best. We argued about this. You insisted that his role wasn't as a starter-- not even a bad one-- because he didn't have three pitches.

    Therefore, he was a flash in the pan. (My words, not yours, but your explanation.)

    Now, he's shown (again) the slider. Perhaps it goes away again. Perhaps it doesn't. Regardless, he's shown he has it. (Again.)
    No, I said without a third pitch, he was a bullpenner.

  10. #69
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    78-82 is a lot different than 74-76, which is where his breaking ball was Thursday.
    It's two mph.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  11. #70
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    It's two mph.
    Yes, the top of one range and the bottom of one range is 2 MPH. But the bottom to top is 8 MPH. The top to top is 6 MPH. That is a big difference.

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    Re: Cingrani...

    I think the pitch looked different than his slider looked last year. But I haven't seen enough to know.

    Cingrani made believers out of some of us last year. Doug's been slower to come around. Doesn't matter -- what matters is that he's emerging as a tantalizing LH starter prospect.
    "Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

  13. #72
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    Re: Cingrani...

    In an attempt to move beyond another semantic "who's athletic" "what's a slider" argument, can anyone comment on whether this was Cingrani's main breaking ball last night? Is this a new pitch or just a slider that accidentally looped more than usual.

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  15. #73
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    In an attempt to move beyond another semantic "who's athletic" "what's a slider" argument, can anyone comment on whether this was Cingrani's main breaking ball last night? Is this a new pitch or just a slider that accidentally looped more than usual.
    It's obvious you never played the game Superdude. Now sit down and only speak when spoken to.

    Oh, and kaldaniels votes for "curve". Not enough lateral movement.

  16. #74
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Has everyone lost their collective mind?

    Cingrani said it was a slider.

    It's a slider. It's the same slider he's been working on since he's been pitching.

    It makes no logical sense to ignore the pitcher's own statement in favor of your own narrative or opinion.
    "You can learn little from victory. You can learn everything from defeat."
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  17. #75
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    Re: Cingrani...

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    It's obvious you never played the game Superdude. Now sit down and only speak when spoken to.
    I think I'm in a better position than anyone to speak on the subject. If you followed the blue Ace Hardware team in '98, you would have seen me attempt to throw tons of sliders in my rare mop up appearances. Like Cingrani, I learned that intentions don't always match reality. Unlike Cingrani, I cried after the game.


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