Jonah Keri ranks the Reds #1

[RedEye]

Until Heisey shows that he still can hit, IMO there's no comparison between him and Ludwick. If he gets out of his "slump" which has lasted over a full season, we can talk.

I'm back!

I suppose this depends on whether you believe that 2012 Ludwick (who is a slightly less effective imitation of 2008 Ludwick from StL) is the real one. I think Keri's point is that if you look at his career numbers, Ludwick is in for some sort of regression this year. If that happens, then the Reds are choosing between two rather mediocre OF with different skills.

[Kc61]

I'm back!

I suppose this depends on whether you believe that 2012 Ludwick (who is a slightly less effective imitation of 2008 Ludwick from StL) is the real one. I think Keri's point is that if you look at his career numbers, Ludwick is in for some sort of regression this year. If that happens, then the Reds are choosing between two rather mediocre OF with different skills.

With Ludwick, keep in mind that the conditions for success will be very favorable this year, if he returns healthy.

He'll be hitting in the middle of a potent lineup with lots of "protection." Hitting between Votto and Bruce probably, he'd get many good pitches to hit and may face lefties in key situations.

Ludwick also seems to like the environs of GABP.

[Mutaman]

I'm back!

I suppose this depends on whether you believe that 2012 Ludwick (who is a slightly less effective imitation of 2008 Ludwick from StL) is the real one. I think Keri's point is that if you look at his career numbers, Ludwick is in for some sort of regression this year. If that happens, then the Reds are choosing between two rather mediocre OF with different skills.

So what this all boils down to is that if Ludwick was to have had a really bad year, Heisey would be a competent replacement for Him. In other words Heisey could replace somebody who was really bad.

I guess I can go along with that. But, factoring in his leadership and professionalism, I think I'd still rather have bad Ryan over average Chris.

[RedEye]

=Mutaman;2837557]So what this all boils down to is that if Ludwick was to have had a really bad year, Heisey would be a competent replacement for Him. In other words Heisey could replace somebody who was really bad.

No, actually it boils down to that if Ludwick performs to his career norms then they would be pretty equal players when you factor in all their skills. Since he is 35 years old, I'd wager that the norms or even somewhat below them are the most likely scenario. Both Heisey and Ludwick, I think, project to be about league average players when everything is considered.

I guess I can go along with that. But, factoring in his leadership and professionalism, I think I'd still rather have bad Ryan over average Chris.

This is where you lose me. Both of them seem like nice guys and I have no way to define "leadership" or "professionalism" in any dependable way. I know that Ludwick had some sort of inside joke about the word "bro" last year -- but that's not leadership in any conventional sense of the word. Saying that you just feel Ludwick's leadership in your gut from watching him play baseball isn't exactly a very solid argument... but right now, that's all the evidence you've really offered in that regard.

[RedEye]

With Ludwick, keep in mind that the conditions for success will be very favorable this year, if he returns healthy.

He'll be hitting in the middle of a potent lineup with lots of "protection." Hitting between Votto and Bruce probably, he'd get many good pitches to hit and may face lefties in key situations.

Ludwick also seems to like the environs of GABP.

Then again, Ludwick is also a year older, and there is a normal, expected decline in players of his age. Keri mentions that, too.

[Mitri]

BTW, Keri has the Reds back up to #5 after falling from first to eleventh last week. Cards are at #7.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...anks-mlb-teams

[Mutaman]

This is where you lose me. Both of them seem like nice guys and I have no way to define "leadership" or "professionalism" in any dependable way. I know that Ludwick had some sort of inside joke about the word "bro" last year -- but that's not leadership in any conventional sense of the word. Saying that you just feel Ludwick's leadership in your gut from watching him play baseball isn't exactly a very solid argument... but right now, that's all the evidence you've really offered in that regard.

You keep throwing around the word "evidence" but I'll play. How's this- when Walt decided to pay Ludwick $15 million for two years he said the following:

"He was a very important part of our success last year as a middle-of-the-order bat," Jocketty said. "It was a bat we had to replace somehow, and I wanted Luddy back for a lot of reasons. I think he'll continue to do well in this ballpark and he'll continue to provide leadership with this ballclub."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...-deal/1756305/

Now I'm sure you agree with me that Walt qualifies as an expert, so I offer Walt's expert opinion as evidence supporting my arguments. I rest my case.

[RedEye]

"He was a very important part of our success last year as a middle-of-the-order bat," Jocketty said. "It was a bat we had to replace somehow, and I wanted Luddy back for a lot of reasons. I think he'll continue to do well in this ballpark and he'll continue to provide leadership with this ballclub."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...-deal/1756305/
.

Does this somehow prove that Heisey does not have leadership qualities? Not really. It's more just rhetoric for a special occasion than anything else.

[Mutaman]

Does this somehow prove that Heisey does not have leadership qualities? Not really. It's more just rhetoric for a special occasion than anything else.

Weak ! $15 million is a lot more than just retoric.

In any event, you wanted evidence and I have supplied the highest form of expert evidence, Walts expert opinion. So you're going to have to do a lot better than just offer your own unsupported opinion characterizing Walt's public statement.

[RedEye]

Weak ! $15 million is a lot more than just retoric.

In any event, you wanted evidence and I have supplied the highest form of expert evidence, Walts expert opinion. So you're going to have to do a lot better than just offer your own unsupported opinion characterizing Walt's public statement.

I'm not saying Ryan Ludwick is or is not a leader. That's actually irrelevant to my point. And it certainly doesn't relate to what Jonah Keri is talking about.

Moreover -- my argument has never been about Heisey OVER Ludwick. It has been me arguing against your claim that comparing Ludwick and Heisey is "absurd." So far, the only "evidence" you've been able to muster for this is that Walt Jocketty said some nice things about him at a press conference. That doesn't relate to my point or Keri's point whatsoever. And it doesn't say anything about what good personality qualities Chris Heisey might have either.

[Patrick Bateman]

Are we just pretending that the 2 seasons prior to Ludwick's arrival didn't even happen?

I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that a scenario exists where Heisey could approach the overall value of Ludwick over a full season.

In fact, he's already done it twice before (both 2010 and 2011). You would almost be having to try to be difficult to twist the author's words to suggest the statement was incredulous.

[RedEye]

Here we go, Mutaman... cold, hard evidence that Chris Heisey is a GREAT guy:

If you think Chris Heisey is a perfectionist, you'd be right. He often remarks how he should "do better." He had one of the best seasons a baseball player could have, yet he yearns to improve. He's an honest and wholesome man, a man of God, who feels he can also do better in life. Humble yet competitive, Heisey has the qualities of a Frank Capra character -- a role model not just for kids, but for adults alike.

Just like anyone else, Chris Heisey is a family man. He's dedicated to his wife, Lisa, who was also an athletic standout at Messiah College on the school's field hockey team -- "She's my wife, my batting coach, my nutritionist; she's really important" -- and he's the pillar of his immediate family, which includes his mother Linda, his younger brother Jon and his two younger sisters Katie and Jessica.

This is from Jamie Ramsey, a guy who (unlike a lot of us) actually knows these people some.

So... I say in the personality contest between Ludwick and Heisey, we have a draw.

Now let's go back to some more objective measures, shall we?

[RedEye]

double post

[Mutaman]

I'm not saying Ryan Ludwick is or is not a leader. That's actually irrelevant to my point. And it certainly doesn't relate to what Jonah Keri is talking about.

You're going out with a whimper not a bang. You wanted to talk evidence- Walt's opinion is evidence because he's a qualified expert. Your opinion is not evidence because you are not an expert.

Keri said Heisey was a competent replacement for Ludwick. I argued that was ridiculous. You conceeded that Heisey could not replace Ludwick's offensive skills but he made up for it in other areas. (I'm parapharasing due to time constarints). I stated that as far as other areas were concerned, Ludwick was a team leader. You said to prove it and I did by offerring Walt's expert statement. So get with, come back with some "evidence" not opinions (your words not mine) or Sayonara.

[Mutaman]

Not THE Jamie Ramsey. I'll conceed Chris Heisey is a great guy. So is Manny Para, but that doesn't make him a competentent replacement for Chapman.