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Thread: Should the Reds rein in Billy Hamilton?

  1. #16
    Member medford's Avatar
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    Re: Should the Reds rein in Billy Hamilton?

    I hear pitching a baseball causes wear and tear on a pitcher's arm, perhaps they should tell Cigrani, Stephenson, Corcino, etc... to throttle it back and only throw 40 pitches a night.

    Billy has not mastered the art of the steal. Oh sure, he's got great speed which turns a stolen base attempt into a success at an acceptable rate, but he's still got pitcher moves to learn, catcher pop times, etc... The guys he's facing in AAA now, are some of the pitchers and/or catchers he'll be attempting to steal a base off of in the show. He doesn't need to attempt a steal just to attempt a steal, but he needs to harness the finer points basestealing.

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  3. #17
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    Re: Should the Reds rein in Billy Hamilton?

    I know this probably isn't scientific at all, but, because he's lighter, would it make a difference as to the wear on tear? He's so slight of build that it may not wear on him as much.

    (He's also apparently at least semi-tough. Either last season or in Spring Training this year, he apparently tore the fingernail off his left middle finger while sliding. He stayed in the game and refused to leave. Heard a couple stories about two-hour batting practices, as well as a few two-hour fielding practice sessions before games.)
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  4. #18
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Should the Reds rein in Billy Hamilton?

    I say no. I like his all-out, aggressive approach. You don't want to change who a player is, especially when things are going so well. Can you imagine if a coach/manager had told Pete Rose back in the day to "tone things down" a little bit? It just wasn't his nature and he was at his best when he was going all-out. Not comparing Hamilton to Rose as a player, just pointing out that you don't want to change who a player is when things are going so well.

  5. #19
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Should the Reds rein in Billy Hamilton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrap Irony View Post
    I know this probably isn't scientific at all, but, because he's lighter, would it make a difference as to the wear on tear? He's so slight of build that it may not wear on him as much.

    (He's also apparently at least semi-tough. Either last season or in Spring Training this year, he apparently tore the fingernail off his left middle finger while sliding. He stayed in the game and refused to leave. Heard a couple stories about two-hour batting practices, as well as a few two-hour fielding practice sessions before games.)
    I had the same thought. He reminds of me Juan Pierre or Kenny Lofton. Slighter athletic guys who simply aren't putting the same physical toll on their bodies as a bigger player does. Even a guy like Brandon Phillips, who isn't exactly tall, has a thicker build and asking more of his joints and ligaments than a guy like Hamilton.

    I'd love to hear what a kinesthesiologist would have to say on the matter.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  6. #20
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    Re: Should the Reds rein in Billy Hamilton?

    I was going to question the OP's theory using Rose as an example also. Harper is another who plays all out all the time in DC. Most don't question it based on wear and tear so much as about making better decisions when on the basepaths or playing the field. Think that's the majority view here on this thread with Hamilton; that he needs to learn the finer points of stealing bases and lowering the CS rate.

    After catching the full Nats at Reds series last weekend, I took a trip down to Louisville to see Hamilton. Will post a bit about that experience on a different thread but, suffice to say, I was very impressed. He went 4 for 5 Monday night with a couple stolen bases and a very nice diving catch for an out in center field. Really something. Tough to form a full judgment on one game like that (he didn't do anything last night from the boxscore) but it was really something to watch.
    Reds & Nats, 2013 LCS. Take2 (9/13) Reds but no Nats

  7. #21
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    Re: Should the Reds rein in Billy Hamilton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    I say no. I like his all-out, aggressive approach. You don't want to change who a player is, especially when things are going so well. Can you imagine if a coach/manager had told Pete Rose back in the day to "tone things down" a little bit? It just wasn't his nature and he was at his best when he was going all-out. Not comparing Hamilton to Rose as a player, just pointing out that you don't want to change who a player is when things are going so well.
    It doesn't sound like they're trying to change him though. Maybe they just want him to temporarily focus on being more selective about when he runs and learn how he can improve his baserunning even more. Then in 2-3 months give him the green light. If his baserunning had been better last year maybe he could've had 170 steals. Who knows.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  8. #22
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Should the Reds rein in Billy Hamilton?

    Quote Originally Posted by redsfandan View Post
    It doesn't sound like they're trying to change him though. Maybe they just want him to temporarily focus on being more selective about when he runs and learn how he can improve his baserunning even more. Then in 2-3 months give him the green light. If his baserunning had been better last year maybe he could've had 170 steals. Who knows.
    Semantics, man. As myself and others said about Pete Rose, would you have wanted the Reds to "rein him in" back in the day? Of course not. When a player is doing well, let him be who he is.

  9. #23
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    Re: Should the Reds rein in Billy Hamilton?

    A secondary consideration in developing minor league prospects is to maximizing their value. You never know when he might become trade bait to fill an organizational need at the major league level. Let him run.
    A summer watching a bad Reds' team, is still a pretty good summer.

  10. #24
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    Re: Should the Reds rein in Billy Hamilton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    Semantics, man. As myself and others said about Pete Rose, would you have wanted the Reds to "rein him in" back in the day? Of course not. When a player is doing well, let him be who he is.
    No it's not. We're talking about a prospect. Not a guy in the majors. I have no problem with the move to rein him in a little to work on improvements. Better to work on those improvements now before he joins the Reds where the wins and losses mean more. I think the fear about him being "changed" is just that. Fear. And I doubt a little less steals will hurt his trade value if he also has become an even better baserunner.
    "Now that's a real shame when folks be throwin' away a perfectly good white boy like that."

  11. #25
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Should the Reds rein in Billy Hamilton?

    Using Pete Rose as an example of how to stay healthy isn't a good idea. The guy was a freak. It is like using Nolan Ryan as an example to keep pitchers healthy. Guys like those are outliers, not examples.

  12. #26
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Should the Reds rein in Billy Hamilton?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Using Pete Rose as an example of how to stay healthy isn't a good idea. The guy was a freak. It is like using Nolan Ryan as an example to keep pitchers healthy. Guys like those are outliers, not examples.
    Billy Hamilton is an "outlier" too. Hello?! 155 steals, anyone? While batting .311? We're not talking about some "average" dude here.

    Bryce Harper, Mike Trout ... you want to rein in those guys too? Yep, they're "outliers." So is our guy. Not the same kind of player, but definitely an "outlier."

    Thanks for helping me prove my point, Doug.

  13. #27
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Should the Reds rein in Billy Hamilton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    Billy Hamilton is an "outlier" too. Hello?! 155 steals, anyone? While batting .311? We're not talking about some "average" dude here.

    Bryce Harper, Mike Trout ... you want to rein in those guys too? Yep, they're "outliers." So is our guy. Not the same kind of player, but definitely an "outlier."

    Thanks for helping me prove my point, Doug.
    Billy Hamilton is an outlier for being fast. He is not an outlier for being healthy. He is 22 years old. We don't know what he can do as far as health goes. Same for Harper or Trout. They are even younger than Hamilton is. I didn't prove your point at all. You are trying to make a connection to athletic skill to an ability to stay healthy. That isn't making your point at all.

    And you really need to calm down with the "embarrassing" and "hello?!" stuff.

  14. #28
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Should the Reds rein in Billy Hamilton?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Billy Hamilton is an outlier for being fast. He is not an outlier for being healthy. He is 22 years old. We don't know what he can do as far as health goes. Same for Harper or Trout. They are even younger than Hamilton is. I didn't prove your point at all. You are trying to make a connection to athletic skill to an ability to stay healthy. That isn't making your point at all.

    And you really need to calm down with the "embarrassing" and "hello?!" stuff.
    I'm perfectly calm. It's called adding some personality. You should try it sometime.

    And Billy Hamilton is an "outlier" in that he's one of the top-20 baseball prospects on the planet. He's more than just "fast" or we'd be talking about track and field, not baseball. The point is that you don't take elite athletes who have a history of staying healthy and try and "rein them in." That could change how they play and you don't want to do that.
    Last edited by Blitz Dorsey; 04-12-2013 at 05:04 PM.

  15. #29
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    Re: Should the Reds rein in Billy Hamilton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz Dorsey View Post
    I'm perfectly calm. It's called adding some personality. You should try it sometime.

    And Billy Hamilton is an "outlier" in that he's one of the top-20 baseball prospects on the planet. He's more than just "fast" or we'd be talking about track and field, not baseball. The point is that you don't take elite athletes who have a history of staying healthy and try and "rein them in." That could change how they play and you don't want to do that.
    There is a difference in personality in person and on the internet. On the internet, you can't tell tone or intention.

    As for reining guys in, if you think it could be detrimental to their health, yes, you better rein them in. Hamilton is an outlier in his speed. He isn't an outlier as a hitter or fielder. He isn't an outlier when it comes to having the ability to stay healthy for 25 years like Nolan Ryan or Pete Rose (and if he is, we surely won't know for a long, long time).

  16. #30
    Party like it's 1990 Blitz Dorsey's Avatar
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    Re: Should the Reds rein in Billy Hamilton?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    There is a difference in personality in person and on the internet. On the internet, you can't tell tone or intention.

    As for reining guys in, if you think it could be detrimental to their health, yes, you better rein them in. Hamilton is an outlier in his speed. He isn't an outlier as a hitter or fielder. He isn't an outlier when it comes to having the ability to stay healthy for 25 years like Nolan Ryan or Pete Rose (and if he is, we surely won't know for a long, long time).
    No matter the sport, you just don't want to "rein in" elite performers. When Adrian Peterson came off a torn ACL in the violent NFL, did the Vikings tell him to "rein it in" a little bit? No. It would have changed the way he played. He went full-bore as usual and had a great, amazing year. If he wasn't ready to go 100 percent and be the RB he always was, he shouldn't have been playing.

    Hamilton isn't even coming off an injury or anything of the sort. I am responding to the idea that the Reds should consider "reining him in." I think it would be a bad idea. His aggressive approach is one of the the things that has made him one of the top-20 prospects in all of MLB and he has no injury history despite his all-out style. In fact, he's been extremely durable during his brief MiLB career. Reining him in is not at all what I want the Reds to do. I want them to keep the pedal down.


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