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Thread: 2013 Cardinals Discussion

  1. #46
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Cardinals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Anyone whose had TJ surgery will always be a question mark going forward. Look at the list if guys who had it. Extremely rare for guys who had it at Wainright's age to bounce back as starters and produce like they did before. But even if you count him and Westbrook, that's two who have given the team 30 starts and 200 innings. The Reds have four guys, even if Cueto is out for the season.

    And why is Macha, who has 4 minor league starts, ready to start in the majors but Chapman isn't? Cards have Kelly, Rosenthall and Wacha, Reds have Chapman, Cingrani and Corcino. Don't see any difference, except one, Chapman, has the talent to win a Cy Young.
    Because Wacha is conditioned to be a starter and Chapman isn't. Wacha spent his entire college career as a starter. By no means am I saying he has better stuff than Chapman, that would be ludicrous. However, in terms of starting I think Wacha is much more suited for it than Chapman. If he is needed to spot start or game, maybe Chapman could be successful but I don't see him being a successful long term option as a starter if one of your pitchers goes down for a long stint on the DL.

    I don't know if guys coming back from TJ and being successful is as rare as you're making it out to be. Wainwrights velocity is back up to pre TJ surgery levels and he's been really good thus far in the early season. I don't see really any issues with him.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

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  3. #47
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    Re: 2013 Cardinals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    hahaha you're using Butters as an example to prove your point? That's a SMH example if I've ever seen one. In no way can you even compare what Butters did in the minors to what Taveras is doing or has done. He was a strike out machine in the minors even with his slight uptick in home runs. The same with Rasmus. You also to conveniently ignore what Taveras did in terms of doubles and triples last season along with his age. It's silly to believe that Taveras is the same kind of hitter with the same kind of power now as he was when he was 17 when he started his minor league career.
    I love how I can point out 4 or 5 different examples but none of them are ever good enough and the guys they have now are different and will pan out even if so many prospect fail. I would bet my life you hyped up Rasmus as a can't miss star to the second they traded him you magically seen his flaws. You do know that guys are going other XBH that just HR in hitters parks too right?

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    Re: 2013 Cardinals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    Even when you started the discussion there? I also love it how you take everything I've said out of proportion and pretty much distort everything I said. Are you always this dishonest?
    Its the scoreboard watching thread, I talked bout the Cardinals game and you got upset about it and hijacked the thread. You do know this is a Reds board and you and your over the top Cardinals hype isn't going to be agreed with, Right?

  5. #49
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    Re: 2013 Cardinals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by HometownHero View Post
    I love how I can point out 4 or 5 different examples but none of them are ever good enough and the guys they have now are different and will pan out even if so many prospect fail. I would bet my life you hyped up Rasmus as a can't miss star to the second they traded him you magically seen his flaws. You do know that guys are going other XBH that just HR in hitters parks too right?
    No, as long time ORG members can attest, I was on the trade Rasmus bandwagon long before they traded him. Some Reds fans here completely disagreed with my notion that he would never be successful in St. Louis.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

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  6. #50
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    Re: 2013 Cardinals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by HometownHero View Post
    Its the scoreboard watching thread, I talked bout the Cardinals game and you got upset about it and hijacked the thread. You do know this is a Reds board and you and your over the top Cardinals hype isn't going to be agreed with, Right?
    That's fine to discuss them but I'm going to retort when you think it's all luck without even giving any nod to the skill that they have in the lineup. They've had the best offense in the NL in 2011 and the best or second best offense in 2012 in the NL. You have categorized that as luck and there's a lot more to it than just luck. I conceded that they're not going to hit .400 with RISP all season. I never denied that.

    EDIT: Anyone can see, in this thread, that you started taking shots. I'm going to defend my team if I feel that the argument used to somehow diminish what they're doing is flawed. You also seem to be conveniently ignoring my stance that the bullpen is bad and that they won't go far unless that situation is rectified.
    Last edited by MikeThierry; 04-14-2013 at 11:29 PM.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

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  7. #51
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    Re: 2013 Cardinals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    Because Wacha is conditioned to be a starter and Chapman isn't. Wacha spent his entire college career as a starter. By no means am I saying he has better stuff than Chapman, that would be ludicrous. However, in terms of starting I think Wacha is much more suited for it than Chapman. If he is needed to spot start or game, maybe Chapman could be successful but I don't see him being a successful long term option as a starter if one of your pitchers goes down for a long stint on the DL.

    I don't know if guys coming back from TJ and being successful is as rare as you're making it out to be. Wainwrights velocity is back up to pre TJ surgery levels and he's been really good thus far in the early season. I don't see really any issues with him.
    Chapman has been conditioned to be a starter his whole career. This relieving stint is what's new for him. He started in Cuba and most of his minor league career. I imagine that he has more starts in his lifetime than Wacha. The Reds were ready to have him start this entire season, and only changed their mind because Chapman wanted to close. Only issue is they might want to keep his innings down to around 170, but I imagine Wacha's would be much lower than that.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  8. #52
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    Re: 2013 Cardinals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Chapman has been conditioned to be a starter his whole career. This relieving stint is what's new for him. He started in Cuba and most of his minor league career. I imagine that he has more starts in his lifetime than Wacha. The Reds were ready to have him start this entire season, and only changed their mind because Chapman wanted to close. Only issue is they might want to keep his innings down to around 170, but I imagine Wacha's would be much lower than that.
    I agree with you that he probably has more starts under his belt than Wacha but more than four years removed from a starting role will nullify any conditioning he has as a starter, as it pertains to present day. Rosenthal was a starter even last year and I would feel uncomfortable putting him in the starting rotation because he's been conditioned very recently to be a relief arm.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

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    Re: 2013 Cardinals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    That's fine to discuss them but I'm going to retort when you think it's all luck without even giving any nod to the skill that they have in the lineup. They've had the best offense in the NL in 2011 and the best or second best offense in 2012 in the NL. You have categorized that as luck and there's a lot more to it than just luck. I conceded that they're not going to hit .400 with RISP all season. I never denied that.
    They have some skill but getting stupid amount of two out runs and hits with RISP despite not hitting for power, stealing or walking is a fluke. Going 39 innings without giving up a run is lucky, just look at all the diving plays and line outs it takes to do it. Are the Cards so skilled they can go a cycle around the rotation and see the starters post a 0.24 ERA in 38 IP?

    No team has been as lucky as the Cards have been over the few years, that's why every team in the division uses the term pixie dust. Either winning a WS with 83 wins, or another after the Braves had a historic 10-20 meltdown to blow a 10.5 game lead or winning the first 2nd WC in the NL and advance on a blown called on a infield fly deep into LF and get one win from the WS on the back of Pete Kozma's .236 minor league numbers.

  10. #54
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    Re: 2013 Cardinals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeThierry View Post
    I agree with you that he probably has more starts under his belt than Wacha but more than four years removed from a starting role will nullify any conditioning he has as a starter, as it pertains to present day. Rosenthal was a starter even last year and I would feel uncomfortable putting him in the starting rotation because he's been conditioned very recently to be a relief arm.
    Chapman was being conditioned to start last spring and this spring. He's ready right now, just as Rosenthal is, just as Wacha is.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  11. #55
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    Re: 2013 Cardinals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by HometownHero View Post
    Mike Thierry on a Reds board of all place gets upset if we don't bow down to the Cardinals. This lead to the scoreboard watching thread getting hijacked and the mods made this for him to keep on dragging out his battles attempting to convince us all how skilled they are and how they never have any crazy luck to win and how all their minor leagues will either match or exceed their minor league numbers and they never have any prospects fail.
    Boo.

    I think Mike is a very solid contributor.
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  12. #56
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    Re: 2013 Cardinals Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by HometownHero View Post
    They have some skill but getting stupid amount of two out runs and hits with RISP despite not hitting for power, stealing or walking is a fluke. Going 39 innings without giving up a run is lucky, just look at all the diving plays and line outs it takes to do it. Are the Cards so skilled they can go a cycle around the rotation and see the starters post a 0.24 ERA in 38 IP?

    No team has been as lucky as the Cards have been over the few years, that's why every team in the division uses the term pixie dust. Either winning a WS with 83 wins, or another after the Braves had a historic 10-20 meltdown to blow a 10.5 game lead or winning the first 2nd WC in the NL and advance on a blown called on a infield fly deep into LF and get one win from the WS on the back of Pete Kozma's .236 minor league numbers.
    Did you ever see me on here say that they will keep up those trends? My point is, that you do not want to concede, that they have had the best NL offense the past couple of years now and they will go through stretches where the "luck" factor comes into play because of how well top to bottom their offense is. As this article explains, the Cardinals could have the best offense in the NL again this year and have been on par with the Yankees in terms of offensive production the past couple of years.

    http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/sprin...nal-league-mlb

    They also had the 4th best starters ERA in baseball last season. No, they aren't good enough to post up a .24 ERA all season long but it also shouldn't leave you dumbfounded if for some reason their starters have a stretch where they don't give up a ton of runs because they have skill in the starting rotation.

    Did you ever see me here last year complaining or using the "luck" argument when the Reds went on their insane run last season when Votto was out or the numerous amount of games where they've come back in the 9th the past couple of years? No, because the Reds are a good team and the talent on the Reds lends itself to "creating it's own luck" at times.

    In fact, I would argue that the the Cardinals were unlucky most of the year last year with the run differential they had yet lack of wins to show for it. As with all sports, there is an amount of luck involved. However the skill on good teams in sports lends itself to being lucky at times.
    Last edited by MikeThierry; 04-15-2013 at 05:38 AM.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

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  13. #57
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    Re: 2013 Cardinals Discussion

    I honestly don't know how they win games. Their defense and bullpen are garbage. Also, their 3,4,5 guys are average. Yet they keep rolling along.
    I pulled this quote from another part of the forum and it isn't something anyone here said. This is the kind of stuff leaves me scratching my head. No question is the bullpen garbage but to say their 3,4,5 guys are average is silly when they've gotten some of the best production from the 3,4,5 guys in the NL for the past couple of years now. Besides, being good in those positions isn't why the St. Louis offense is good. They also get a ton of production from the rest of the spots in their lineup. They had 5 guys last season hit 20 or more HR's and 5-6 guys hit over .290 in their lineup last season. They also had 5-6 guys in their lineup get on base over .340 all year long. No, they don't have a 3 hitter like Votto but if their whole lineup gives them production, they should score a ton of runs on an aggregate at the end of the year.

    I will agree that their defense leaves a bit to be desired and their bullpen is a joke but I continue to smash my head against a key board as to why RedZone members think it's magical pixie dust on the offensive front.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

    Mike Shannon

  14. #58
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    Re: 2013 Cardinals Discussion

    Am I the only one that would take Cingrani over and most of our pitchers? I know he hasn't proven anything at the MLB level yet really (though he looked phenomenal last year in his brief stint) but the kid flat out hurls. Better numbers at every level than Miller and I think he's going to really impress when he makes the jump this year.

    I mean, Cingrani has never put up an ERA higher than 2.12 ANYWHERE since being drafted. That's absolutely insane.
    I see great things in baseball. It's our game.

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    Re: 2013 Cardinals Discussion

    2rd inning today and already have 7 runs with 2 outs, they were already leading the NL before this game despite have a OPS .151 lower than 2nd place in the situation. They came in 5 runs over 3rd place and they have played one more game and 4th place NL team has just 21 runs so after two innings today they are now 19 runs with two out behind the Cardinals. No luck at all right, leading the majors by a wide gap with zero DH games played is a common occurrence.

    EDIT:
    You can add two more runs with 2 outs in the 3rd inning as well, now leading the NL by 10 over the hottest team in the majors.
    Last edited by HometownHero; 04-15-2013 at 09:17 PM.

  16. #60
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    Re: 2013 Cardinals Discussion

    To all those who doubt Matt Adams Power observe

    I believe the roof was closed as well

    http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?co...d=vtp_michelin
    Last edited by Salukifan2; 04-15-2013 at 10:16 PM.


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