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Thread: Paul D - Small Sample

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    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Paul D - Small Sample

    Daugherty makes my head hurt

    http://cincinnati.com/blogs/daughert...an-fires-back/

    BP IS MVP, NOT JV. Not sure why this is even a topic for debate. I like Joey Votto as much as the next guy. Hes having a good year, emphasis on good. His production isnt carrying The Club. His defense isnt what it has been and needs to be. Todd Frazier has more RBI. Zack Cozart has more doubles. When you are 4th on your own team in runs driven in, you are not often its most valuable player. Phillips has been golden at 2B, as usual. His BA w/RISP is .404, 5th in the NL. OK?
    Phillips since 6-1 - .228/.289/.309/.597

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    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Paul D - Small Sample

    Once again, in Doc's world, "saber stats" are somehow warring against those who "actually watch the game." It's just pitiful how little effort he has put into even understanding the argument he now pretends to master. Embarrassing, really.

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    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Paul D - Small Sample

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Daugherty makes my head hurt

    http://cincinnati.com/blogs/daughert...an-fires-back/



    Phillips since 6-1 - .228/.289/.309/.597
    Votto is the MVP.

    That said, BP has been put into a position where he has come to the plate with many runners on base. And he has answered the call, to the effect of fifth in the league with RISP. That is valuable. Doesn't mean he will keep it up. Doesn't mean it makes him a great player. It is a small sample. But it counts and has been valuable to the team. I don't dismiss his hitting with RISP to date.

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    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Paul D - Small Sample

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Votto is the MVP.

    That said, BP has been put into a position where he has come to the plate with many runners on base. And he has answered the call, to the effect of fifth in the league with RISP. That is valuable. Doesn't mean he will keep it up. Doesn't mean it makes him a great player. It is a small sample. But it counts and has been valuable to the team. I don't dismiss his hitting with RISP to date.
    Of course he's done good, he's averaging an ab with runners on every three ab's.. and it's almost always Votto.

    But no team has a MVP who has a sub .600 OPS for 45 days, unless he's a pitcher.

    Just weak stuff all around

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    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Paul D - Small Sample

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    Votto is the MVP.

    That said, BP has been put into a position where he has come to the plate with many runners on base. And he has answered the call, to the effect of fifth in the league with RISP. That is valuable. Doesn't mean he will keep it up. Doesn't mean it makes him a great player. It is a small sample. But it counts and has been valuable to the team. I don't dismiss his hitting with RISP to date.
    No one is saying BP has not been valuable. They are just saying that Votto has been more so -- by nearly every measure other than RBI (which arguably doesn't really measure individual value anyway) and fielding at 2B (which isn't really fair since Joey's a first baseman).

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    My clutch is broken RichRed's Avatar
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    Re: Paul D - Small Sample

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Daugherty makes my head hurt

    http://cincinnati.com/blogs/daughert...an-fires-back/



    Phillips since 6-1 - .228/.289/.309/.597
    I swear to you, as I was looking at some stats yesterday and noticed that Cozart has more doubles than Votto, I wondered how long it would be until one of the local media guys used that against Joey. I pictured it being Thom though:

    "It is STUNNING to think that Zack Cozart has more doubles than Joey Votto. Just ASTOUNDING. Chris, are you as SHOCKED by that as I am?"

    And "Doc" continues to plumb the depths of bad baseball writing.
    Last edited by RichRed; 07-15-2013 at 06:19 PM. Reason: Trying to be a little nicer.
    "I can make all the stadiums rock."
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    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Paul D - Small Sample

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Of course he's done good, he's averaging an ab with runners on every three ab's.. and it's almost always Votto.

    But no team has a MVP who has a sub .600 OPS for 45 days, unless he's a pitcher.

    Just weak stuff all around
    I agree that was a hacky article. But I suspect I view BP as more valuable than most on here.

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    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Paul D - Small Sample

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    I agree that was a hacky article. But I suspect I view BP as more valuable than most on here.
    More valuable than Votto? Because that's what PD is arguing. And in a remarkably snide way at that: "BP is MVP not JV. Okay?"

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    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Paul D - Small Sample

    Not defending Paul D.. I really don't want to read the article.

    Choo, Votto, BP, and Bruce have really carried the offense this year.
    All are having great years, and we'd probably not be in the wildcard without any of them. IMO, no need to put down any of them to build a case for another being MVP, like Paul D apparently did.

    Frasier has been more than adequate. Great glove at 3b, hits well compared to other 3b. Sure, he's got less pop than less year, but still a great role player on the team.
    I guess I expected both Cozart and Frasier to come a little bit down to earth this season. They are still good players to have on the team, especially at their 2nd year salaries. We can all lament Cozart's OBP, but he's the best all around SS we've had in a long time. If we exclude the one year stop gap veterans that occasionally had a good year.. best SS since Larkin? Or maybe the best since Felipe Lopez's all star year if you like offensive SS.
    Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

    Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

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    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Paul D - Small Sample

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    More valuable than Votto? Because that's what PD is arguing. And in a remarkably snide way at that: "BP is MVP not JV. Okay?"
    No I already said Votto is MVP.

    Hacky article but I wanted BP to get some credit.

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    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Paul D - Small Sample

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Choo, Votto, BP, and Bruce have really carried the offense this year.
    All are having great years, and we'd probably not be in the wildcard without any of them. IMO, no need to put down any of them to build a case for another being MVP, like Paul D apparently did.
    My biggest problem with Doc's argument is not that he insults Votto. It is that he is dead wrong about what "saber stats" are trying to say, and he doesn't take the time to even cover his bases as a journalist.

    In the comments section, there is at least one astute poster who makes many of the arguments we've been making here, trying to get Paul's ear. He doesn't even get a response.

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    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Paul D - Small Sample

    Doc and writers like him are why baseball fans on the whole continue to struggle to understand the value of players. They are supposed to be "experts" and yet they are out there spreading this kind of dog crap to the masses and most of the masses don't have a clue how wrong it is because the guy spreading it is supposed to know more than they do.
    Last edited by dougdirt; 07-15-2013 at 06:02 PM. Reason: typo

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    Member klw's Avatar
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    Re: Paul D - Small Sample

    Joe Morgan was only 3rd on the 75 Reds in RBI. His league MVP should be stripped retroactively. Plus he lead the league in walks and OBP- that is not what he was paid to do.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/1975.shtml

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    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Paul D - Small Sample

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Daugherty makes my head hurt

    http://cincinnati.com/blogs/daughert...an-fires-back/



    Phillips since 6-1 - .228/.289/.309/.597
    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Once again, in Doc's world, "saber stats" are somehow warring against those who "actually watch the game." It's just pitiful how little effort he has put into even understanding the argument he now pretends to master. Embarrassing, really.
    Yes, it was particularly bad this morning, from PD.

    The thing is, he is not a dumb guy. He's just stubborn.

    He is right about BP hitting in the clutch this year, no question.

    But it's worth posting again in this thread, here's Joey Votto this year:

    .318 /.434 /.506 /.939 153 OPS+

    Here's Joey Votto this year with RISP:

    .318/.470/.482/.952 with 26 walks, 13 of those intentional. Same hitter, slightly better OPS with RISP

    It's just not that hard to see that Votto only gets to drive in Choo, but BP (and Jay Bruce) get a chance to drive in the guys who are #1 and #2 in the NL in OBP.


    Just for fun, here's BP this year:

    .266 /.320 /.413 /.733 97 OPS+ (who's your MVP??)

    and with RISP (He's like a Cardinal this year):

    .404/.463/.566/1.029 That's strong.


    Look, it takes a team to win, and the combination of Choo and Votto getting on base, and BP hitting very well with RISP has been great so far.
    I'm not a "stats guy" and I can see this, all day long.

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  23. #15
    nothing more than a fan Always Red's Avatar
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    Re: Paul D - Small Sample

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Doc and writers like him are why baseball fans on the whole continue to struggle to understand the value of players. They are supposed to be "experts" and yet they are out there spreading this kind of dog crap to the masses and most of the masses don't have a clue who wrong it is because the guy spreading it is supposed to know more than they do.
    The "masses" eat this stuff up, Doug, and quote it like it's scripture.

    They're not reading fangraphs, Poz, McCracken and Nate Silver.

    They're reading Doc, and listening to Lance, Marty and Thom. And most are sufficiently satiated with baseball to stop there and go no further, they have all they need and want.

    I had this own revelation of mine when I came here in 2006. I had been spending a lot of time at b-ref.com and noticed all the other stats that I did not recognize. It's all been part of my baseball education, but frankly, most fans never get that far, and I know I'll never get as far saber-wise as some do here, I just don't have the time to spend on it.


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