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Thread: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

  1. #151
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    Tonight was yet another example of why an x OPS hitter who delivers in the clutch will always be better than an x+100 OPS hitter who doesn't. OPS isn't the be all-end all of stats.
    Can you give an example of these two? Otherwise, it is very difficult to discuss the idea. In general good hitters are also good hitters in the clutch and vice versa.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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  3. #152
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    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    Tonight was yet another example of why an x OPS hitter who delivers in the clutch will always be better than an x+100 OPS hitter who doesn't. OPS isn't the be all-end all of stats.
    I don't even have a clue what you're talking about....the closest I can surmise would be to echo Redeye above

  4. #153
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    Tonight was yet another example of why an x OPS hitter who delivers in the clutch will always be better than an x+100 OPS hitter who doesn't. OPS isn't the be all-end all of stats.
    Does a run in the 9th inning count any more than a run in the 4th inning?
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

  5. #154
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    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Can you give an example of these two? Otherwise, it is very difficult to discuss the idea. In general good hitters are also good hitters in the clutch and vice versa.
    BP is a perfect example. He was OPSing at .770 a few days ago, yet he led the league in almost every clutch RBI category. I'll take the clutch RBI guy over the non-clutch guy who OPS's .870 and doesn't deliver when it matters. Same with Jay Bruce. Who cares if his OPS is 100 points lower than the guy who doesn't deliver in crunch time. Then you consider defense and, well, nevermind. Bruce and Phillips are the most under-appreciated Reds on RZ. The OPS crowd just doesn't get it.
    "I talked to an advance scout that told me if Joey Votto and Albert Pujols were on the same team he'd advise his team to do the unthinkable...pitch around Votto to get to Pujols." - Buster Olney, ESPN

  6. #155
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    Tonight was yet another example of why an x OPS hitter who delivers in the clutch will always be better than an x+100 OPS hitter who doesn't. OPS isn't the be all-end all of stats.
    I don't even have a clue what you're talking about....the closest I can surmise would be to echo Redeye above

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    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Most game-tying or go-ahead HR, 9th Inning or later, since 2008:

    1) Miguel Cabrera - 14

    2) Jay Bruce - 10
    "I talked to an advance scout that told me if Joey Votto and Albert Pujols were on the same team he'd advise his team to do the unthinkable...pitch around Votto to get to Pujols." - Buster Olney, ESPN

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  9. #157
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    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Does a run in the 9th inning count any more than a run in the 4th inning?
    You can't be serious.
    "I talked to an advance scout that told me if Joey Votto and Albert Pujols were on the same team he'd advise his team to do the unthinkable...pitch around Votto to get to Pujols." - Buster Olney, ESPN

  10. #158
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    You can't be serious.
    Why can't I? I'd prefer you answer the question. Does a run in the 9th inning county on the scoreboard differently than a run in the fourth inning?
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    BP is a perfect example. He was OPSing at .770 a few days ago, yet he led the league in almost every clutch RBI category. I'll take the clutch RBI guy over the non-clutch guy who OPS's .870 and doesn't deliver when it matters. Same with Jay Bruce. Who cares if his OPS is 100 points lower than the guy who doesn't deliver in crunch time. Then you consider defense and, well, nevermind. Bruce and Phillips are the most under-appreciated Reds on RZ. The OPS crowd just doesn't get it.
    Ahhh...much more clear. I guess I never thought of BP as under appreciated. Bruce, in his month long funks, yes, people are ready to bail on him. I think Jay's problem is simply unreasonable expectations. He isn't Trout-Harper-Bonds-Ruth rolled into one. He is appreciated by more folks than I think you might ctedit RZ for, though.

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    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Why can't I? I'd prefer you answer the question. Does a run in the 9th inning county on the scoreboard differently than a run in the fourth inning?
    I was referring to RBI/Runs that determine the outcomes of games. That doesn't usually happen in the 4th Inning. You obviously don't like Jay Bruce. I get it. I'm not interested in furthering this discussion. Start a new thread if you want to continue to trash Jay.
    "I talked to an advance scout that told me if Joey Votto and Albert Pujols were on the same team he'd advise his team to do the unthinkable...pitch around Votto to get to Pujols." - Buster Olney, ESPN

  13. #161
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    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    I was referring to RBI/Runs that determine the outcomes of games. That doesn't usually happen in the 4th Inning. You obviously don't like Jay Bruce. I get it. I'm not interested in furthering this discussion. Start a new thread if you want to continue to trash Jay.
    No one is trashing Jay. You make a generic statement "OPS guys don't get it," and when someone disagrees with that opinion, not only do you tell them they're not welcome to debate your stance in this thread but automatically assume they're "trashing" the player based on a strawman you've set up? That's baloney.

    First of all, I like Jay and I'd appreciate it if you not intentionally try to put words in my mouth. Second, for someone that is so often talking about not liking it when people talk down to others on this board, you're doing a lot of it in this thread.

    Lastly, and the tangible point you are clearly missing... if you score 5 runs in the first inning, it's no different than scoring 5 runs in the 9th inning, assuming you've given up 4 runs. So there's no need to be "clutch" if you are scoring runs early. The runs all count evenly.

    Instead of talking down to "OPS guys," I urge you to take out a spreadsheet and run a correlation of OPS to runs scored. Then come back and tell me that OPS doesn't matter. If a bunch of players have a high OPS, then it doesn't matter when the hits are coming, chances are runs are being scored. That Bruce hits homers in the 4th inning or 9th inning is ultimately immaterial. Runs are runs regardless of when you score them.
    Last edited by Brutus; 06-20-2013 at 02:00 AM.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Does a run in the 9th inning count any more than a run in the 4th inning?
    I've already made my case on this in a different thread a few months ago, but I think definitely, because there are less outs available for the opponent to match it.

    If you believe that the most valuable commodity in baseball are outs, than it's logical to assume that they effect the value of other events in the game. As each out disappears, every event become more valuable.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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  17. #163
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    For the record, there's no inclination that Bruce is really all that different in "clutch" situations unless you're only narrowly going to look at 10 at-bats over a several-year period.

    Here are his career splits:

    Late & Close (within 1 run ahead or behind and 7th inning or later)

    .243/.321/.455/.777 (4.5% HR rate)

    All other plate appearances:

    .262/.331/.490/.821 (4.9% HR rate)

    The 2013 Major League splits are .683 OPS (Late & Close) and .723 in all other plate appearances. So it seems Bruce's splits really aren't anything different than what the league is doing. He's just a little better than most of the league whether it's the 4th inning or 9th inning.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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  19. #164
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    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    I've already made my case on this in a different thread a few months ago, but I think definitely, because there are less outs available for the opponent to match it.

    If you believe that the most valuable commodity in baseball are outs, than it's logical to assume that they effect the value of other events in the game. As each out disappears, every event become more valuable.
    Five runs is still five runs. That doesn't change now matter how many different ways one slices it. It's still a five on the scoreboard and requires the opponent to score six runs.

    I'm honestly not sure why you'd want to have to score a winning run in the 9th inning rather than having a lead going into the 9th. Seems if what you're suggesting were true, then you'd want the pressure on the opponents to score runs and not have it on you to do so.

    Still, at the end of the day, it does not matter. The wins all count the same. The runs all count the same. A team might have a statistically better chance of winning a game up by two runs in the 8th than being up two in the 5th, but it doesn't change the actual value of the runs on the board.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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  21. #165
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    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    I was referring to RBI/Runs that determine the outcomes of games. That doesn't usually happen in the 4th Inning. You obviously don't like Jay Bruce. I get it. I'm not interested in furthering this discussion. Start a new thread if you want to continue to trash Jay.
    Wait. What?
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

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