Turn Off Ads?
Page 9 of 30 FirstFirst ... 567891011121319 ... LastLast
Results 121 to 135 of 441

Thread: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

  1. #121
    Burn It Jamz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    413

    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    No, it isn't. I can't help others' crazed expectations, but #1 prospect in baseball doesn't equal automatic Hall of Famer or guy who never makes an out or whatever impossible bar some set. He projected to be an above average major league outfielder, and he has been that and more. I don't get and have never understood the need to set impossible standards in front of guys before they even make their major league debut. It happened with homer, it happened with jay, it will probably happen with Hamilton. All that does is keep people from enjoying the transition from prospect to legit major league player. And jay has aced that transition. It is the height of churlish to dwell on what he is not in my opinion, rather than enjoy what he is
    Right...but we're not talking about your expectations for him or what is fair or isn't fair. What I said was "is it possible that he may live up to the hype" that there was for him. Whether or not that hype is fair, or it is what you expected, it was still hype that he hasn't quite lived up to.

    Although for what it's worth, outside of one season, he's been about an average outfielder not 'above average' so maybe he isn't even meeting your expectations?

    I've always enjoyed Bruce on the team. That's not to say that he couldn't be more than what he is, because he does have the tools to be that guy.
    Last edited by Jamz; 06-18-2013 at 09:21 AM.
    I see great things in baseball. It's our game.

  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #122
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    34,336

    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz View Post
    Right...but we're not talking about your expectations for him or what is fair or isn't fair. What I said was "is it possible that he may live up to the hype" that there was for him. Whether or not that hype is fair, or it is what you expected, it was still hype that he hasn't quite lived up to.
    I'm not sure anyone could live up to that hype.
    The Rally Onion wants 150 fans before Opening Day.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rally-...24872650873160

  4. #123
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    25,267

    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    If only Jay Bruce could live up to the hype fans/media put on him. That's what really matters.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  5. #124
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Right Down Broadway
    Posts
    18,581

    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz View Post
    Right...but we're not talking about your expectations for him or what is fair or isn't fair. What I said was "is it possible that he may live up to the hype" that there was for him. Whether or not that hype is fair, or it is what you expected, it was still hype that he hasn't quite lived up to.

    Although for what it's worth, outside of one season, he's been about an average outfielder not 'above average' so maybe he isn't even meeting your expectations?

    I've always enjoyed Bruce on the team. That's not to say that he couldn't be more than what he is, because he does have the tools to be that guy.
    For the sake of discussion, how do you determine "average" vs. "above average"?
    Can't win with 'em

    Can't win without 'em

  6. #125
    It's showtime! RedEye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    7,939

    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Red View Post
    As for everyone being disappointed if Jay doesn't OPS over .800, you can leave me out of that group. He was and still is on pace to drive in 100+ runs and hit 25-30 HRs, while getting numerous clutch hits and playing great RF defense.
    Honest question. If you leave aside the D and the "clutch hits" (neither of which you've defined here), the player you describe (25-30 HR, 100+ RBI) could be a number of different people. Don't you want to know whether our Bruce is hitting more like a 2006 Jeff Francoeur or 2011 Joey Votto? Seems to me that's a pretty important distinction, but the stats -- they way you've described them -- don't differentiate these guys. OPS does that better. It lets us see that 2006 Frenchie (.742 OPS) does not even come close to comparing to 2011 Votto (.947 OPS).
    Last edited by RedEye; 06-18-2013 at 09:35 AM.

  7. #126
    Burn It Jamz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    413

    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    For the sake of discussion, how do you determine "average" vs. "above average"?
    I used WAR and wRC+ (mostly because I value batting more than fielding for the most part). Bruce, outside of 2010, has been pretty average. Not bad, but not great either.
    I see great things in baseball. It's our game.

  8. #127
    Unsolicited Opinions traderumor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Right Down Broadway
    Posts
    18,581

    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz View Post
    I used WAR and wRC+ (mostly because I value batting more than fielding for the most part). Bruce, outside of 2010, has been pretty average. Not bad, but not great either.
    That really didn't answer the question. "Average" vs. "Above average" is a comparison. You just told me what measure you used to make that comparison.

    When I did a quick and dirty look at OPS+, I see an above average power hitter who is just now 26, has above average range, and a plus arm. His career OPS+ is 114. Wouldn't you say that is above average?
    Can't win with 'em

    Can't win without 'em

  9. Likes:

    marcshoe (06-18-2013), membengal (06-18-2013), Raisor (06-18-2013), reds44 (06-18-2013)

  10. #128
    Member membengal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Baltimore
    Posts
    8,957
    I don't have time for a full researched post (work and all), but, simply, what was league average OPS for all right fielders each of jays full seasons, and where has he been in relation to that? I suspect he's been above that average. That's my departure point. The criticisms generally lobbed at him by those inclined to do so center on his alleged failings with the bat, so my frame of reference for this discussion starts there.

    Also, not a huge fan of WAR, sorry. For those that like it, that discussion will happen around me.

  11. #129
    Burn It Jamz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    413

    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by traderumor View Post
    That really didn't answer the question. "Average" vs. "Above average" is a comparison. You just told me what measure you used to make that comparison.

    When I did a quick and dirty look at OPS+, I see an above average power hitter who is just now 26, has above average range, and a plus arm. His career OPS+ is 114. Wouldn't you say that is above average?
    • In 2009 Jay Bruce had a wRC+ of 98 good for 31st among RFers with at least 300 PAs and had a WAR of 1.4 good for 24th among RFers with at least 300 PAs.
    • In 2010 Jay Bruce had a wRC+ of 124 good for 13th among RFers with at least 300 PAs and had a WAR of 5.0 good for 4th among RFers with at least 300 PAs.
    • In 2011 Jay Bruce had a wRC+ of 118 good for 15th among RFers with at least 300 PAs and had a WAR of 3.0 good for 11th among RFers with at least 300 PAs.
    • In 2012 Jay Bruce had a wRC+ of 119 good for 18th among RFers with at least 300 PAs and had a WAR of 2.1 good for 21st among RFers with at least 300 PAs.


    This year he's got a wRC+ of 124 (good for 15th) and a WAR of 1.4 (good for 12th). When you consider that there are 30 teams in the league, aside from 2010, that looks pretty average to me (and even in 2010 his offensive contributions weren't much better than average at 13th).

    With all that said he's really looking like he's getting more mature at the plate and I expect his numbers this year to rise quite a bit when all is said and done. I like Jay Bruce a lot, but numbers don't lie. He's been decidedly average for the vast majority of his career.
    I see great things in baseball. It's our game.

  12. #130
    Worst Behavior. reds44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    25,267

    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz View Post
    • In 2009 Jay Bruce had a wRC+ of 98 good for 31st among RFers with at least 300 PAs and had a WAR of 1.4 good for 24th among RFers with at least 300 PAs.
    • In 2010 Jay Bruce had a wRC+ of 124 good for 13th among RFers with at least 300 PAs and had a WAR of 5.0 good for 4th among RFers with at least 300 PAs.
    • In 2011 Jay Bruce had a wRC+ of 118 good for 15th among RFers with at least 300 PAs and had a WAR of 3.0 good for 11th among RFers with at least 300 PAs.
    • In 2012 Jay Bruce had a wRC+ of 119 good for 18th among RFers with at least 300 PAs and had a WAR of 2.1 good for 21st among RFers with at least 300 PAs.


    This year he's got a wRC+ of 124 (good for 15th) and a WAR of 1.4 (good for 12th). When you consider that there are 30 teams in the league, aside from 2010, that looks pretty average to me (and even in 2010 his offensive contributions weren't much better than average at 13th).

    With all that said he's really looking like he's getting more mature at the plate and I expect his numbers this year to rise quite a bit when all is said and done. I like Jay Bruce a lot, but numbers don't lie. He's been decidedly average for the vast majority of his career.
    I just don't know if that's the best way to look at it. Your numbers are undoubtley right, but this year Cozart is 7th in the NL in OPS among SS's. Would you conclude that Cozart's season this year is as good or valuable or whatever word as any of Bruce's previous seasons?

    I get what you're saying, among RFers he has been average, but overall? I think he's been an above average player.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Let's face it, you mis-hit the bun with the mustard squirter, no one will really care.

  13. #131
    Burn It Jamz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    413

    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    I just don't know if that's the best way to look at it. Your numbers are undoubtley right, but this year Cozart is 7th in the NL in OPS among SS's. Would you conclude that Cozart's season this year is as good or valuable or whatever word as any of Bruce's previous seasons?

    I get what you're saying, among RFers he has been average, but overall? I think he's been an above average player.
    Well the problem with looking at it that way is that some positions inherently require a much higher priority on learning defence and are tougher on the body. For example if you had a shortstop that could hit like Jay Bruce he'd be one of the more valuable shortstops in the league -- but how often do you really see that?

    The way I see it is that Bruce should be compared with right fielders (or outfielders) because those are the kinds of players we'd likely use to replace him if he wasn't on our team.
    Last edited by Jamz; 06-18-2013 at 10:42 AM.
    I see great things in baseball. It's our game.

  14. #132
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    675

    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamz View Post
    priority on learning defence.
    Jolly right!

  15. #133
    Puffy 3:16 Puffy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Panama City Beach
    Posts
    13,770

    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    I'm not sure anyone could live up to that hype.
    I could.
    "I came here to kick ass and chew bubble gum... and I'm all out of bubble gum."
    - - Rowdy Roddy Piper

    "It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong. I am not a big man"
    - - Fletch

  16. Likes:

    thatcoolguy_22 (06-18-2013), TRF (06-18-2013)

  17. #134
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Charlotte, Nc
    Posts
    15,088

    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Puffy View Post
    I could.
    Same here. It ain't hype if its true
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  18. #135
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,798

    Re: Jay Bruce looks like he has become a professional hitter overnight!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    No, it isn't. I can't help others' crazed expectations, but #1 prospect in baseball doesn't equal automatic Hall of Famer or guy who never makes an out or whatever impossible bar some set. He projected to be an above average major league outfielder, and he has been that and more. I don't get and have never understood the need to set impossible standards in front of guys before they even make their major league debut. It happened with homer, it happened with jay, it will probably happen with Hamilton. All that does is keep people from enjoying the transition from prospect to legit major league player. And jay has aced that transition. It is the height of churlish to dwell on what he is not in my opinion, rather than enjoy what he is
    What kind of bar did you set for Jay when you thought he was going to be 'an above average MLB outfielder?' I thought the projections for him were much higher than that.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25