Turn Off Ads?
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 35

Thread: Basketball Rule Change Idea

  1. #1
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    15,929

    Basketball Rule Change Idea

    So I know this is the "Non-Sports Chatter" board, but I have an idea for basketball and wasn't sure where else I'd put it.

    The scenario: When teams are in the "bonus", they currently get two free throws when fouled. If the 2nd FT is made, possession changes. If they are fouled while shooting and make the shot, they get an extra FT and then possession changes. If the shot is missed, they get a number of FT equal to the value of the shot being attempted.

    (Note: If the last FT is missed, the defensive team gets the rebound 90%+ of the time, so I'm not bothering counting that possibility as the effect is minimal)

    Assuming an average of 75% FT shooting, a bonus foul makes the possession worth 1.5 points on average, more than the average possession which is worth about 1 point. If fouled while making the shot, they get an obvious advantage of an extra .75 points.

    The problem:
    1.) The "Hack-a-Shaq" scenaior in which a given player's inability to shoot free throws makes him a liability, allowing the defense to easily dictate the offense's opportunities (without requiring skill to do so) and to do so in a way which lowers the average value of the offensive team's possession.
    2.) It artificially caps the possible points for the possession at 2 except in the rare event in which the guy is attempting a 3 pointer. Particularly at the very end of games, a team with a lead can protect it's lead by purposefully fouling and essentially negating the the possibility of a 3 point play.
    3.) Similarly, a team trying to come from behind can purposefully foul, stopping the clock and getting them the ball, trading what is likely a few extra points for a number of extra possessions in which they can score and have a greater chance of coming back.

    All of these scenarios have one common problem: Breaking the rules should not provide the fouling team an advantage. Combine #1 and #3 and you have a real problem where a player who is very good at the core of the sport becomes a detriment to his team. It would be like allowing a team in baseball to trade an inning for a HR derby; which would clearly be unfair against a team built around pitching, defense and small ball.

    My proposal: If a player is fouled while in the bonus or fouled while attempting a shot that he misses, he gets one free throw and his team retains possession of the ball.

    The average "foul" possession now because worth more -- 1.75 points, creating a stronger disincentive to foul. It also takes away the circumstances at the end of the game in which fouling is advantageous.

    Not only is this more fair because it prevents teams from abusing a supposed penalty to gain an advantage, but it would also improve the game aesthetically by basically eliminating the horribly painful sequence at the end of many basketball games where the last 3 minutes take 30 minutes of real time due to all the fouls.

    What do you guys think? Could I be on to something?
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  2. Likes:

    BillDoran (04-19-2013)

  3. Turn Off Ads?
  4. #2
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The 513
    Posts
    12,625

    Re: Basketball Rule Change Idea

    I like the rule change -- my only addition would be I would make all fouls in the bonus (or while shooting) a 1 + Option (v. 1-1) where the shooting team would have the option of taking the second free throw (and conceding possession) or skipping the second free throw and taking the ball on the inbound.

    The problem with the rule-change you've got is that it allows a team protecting a 1 or 2 point lead with time expiring to maul a guy coming down the lane, knowing he's only going to get 1 shot with possibly no (or very little) time left on the clock to get off a good shot on the extra possession. If the shooting team has the option of taking the 2nd shot (v. taking the ball) they can go for the tie or win at the stripe.
    Championships Matter.
    23 Years and Counting...

  5. Likes:

    BillDoran (04-19-2013)

  6. #3
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    15,539

    Re: Basketball Rule Change Idea

    The foul rule is one of the things that's caused me not to follow basketball because I guess I don't get it for the reasons you mentioned. I imagine the BB purists will tell you that the current rules make the game more exciting and allows for comebacks. If that's the case, I'd propose that a fouled team gets 3 FT chances to make 2.

  7. #4
    ZCTRMTP!!!!!
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    10,795

    Re: Basketball Rule Change Idea

    Sports is all about exploiting the other team's weakness. I see nothing wrong with fouling and making the other team make its free throws.

    1) Would this proposed rule change be in effect the entire game or just say(and I am throwing this number out there) the last five minutes of the game? I can't imagine that if a foul is committed against a shooter in the first minute of the game is somehow trying to circumvent any rules. And for the record, I don't think fouling on purpose is 'breaking the rules'. Of course, that is a matter of interpretation.
    2) If the team gets to retain the ball do they get an entirely new shot clock or does time pick up from when the foul was committed?

    IMO, if this rule is put into effect there are going to be a lot more boring basketball games. OTOH, a number of people feel that parades to the free throw line are boring.
    Last edited by texasdave; 04-19-2013 at 09:46 AM.
    Zero chance the Reds miss the playoffs!

  8. #5
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    15,539

    Re: Basketball Rule Change Idea

    I'd say only the bonus FTs would be affected so it's never going to be an issue of the first minute of the game. Every time a new possession is awarded a new shot clock goes along with it

    What makes this part of BB unique is that it's often advantageous for a team to foul and that seems counter to most sports

  9. #6
    ZCTRMTP!!!!!
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    10,795

    Re: Basketball Rule Change Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    I'd say only the bonus FTs would be affected so it's never going to be an issue of the first minute of the game. Every time a new possession is awarded a new shot clock goes along with it

    What makes this part of BB unique is that it's often advantageous for a team to foul and that seems counter to most sports
    My proposal: If a player is fouled while in the bonus or fouled while attempting a shot that he misses, he gets one free throw and his team retains possession of the ball.
    The second part of his proposal can happen quite often in the first minute of a game.
    Zero chance the Reds miss the playoffs!

  10. #7
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    15,539

    Re: Basketball Rule Change Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by texasdave View Post
    The second part of his proposal can happen quite often in the first minute of a game.
    Absolutely. IMO, if this rule is going to happen, it should be in effect for the whole game with the idea that the fouling team is at greater risk by commiting the foul. As it is right now, the fouling team is risking very little more than the two points that were being attempted to begin with.

  11. #8
    Titanic Struggles Caveat Emperor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The 513
    Posts
    12,625

    Re: Basketball Rule Change Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by texasdave View Post
    Sports is all about exploiting the other team's weakness. I see nothing wrong with fouling and making the other team make its free throws.
    Yeah, but other than the 15yd PI rule in college football (where you can tackle a dude who has busted the coverage 30 yards downfield to make sure he doesn't burn you deep and only lose 15 penalty yards), I'm struggling to think of any other sports rule where it benefits a team to commit (and be called for) an infraction of the sport's rules.

    The idea is that you should never derive a benefit from breaking the rules.
    Championships Matter.
    23 Years and Counting...

  12. #9
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Melbourne, FL
    Posts
    4,838

    Re: Basketball Rule Change Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Not only is this more fair because it prevents teams from abusing a supposed penalty to gain an advantage, but it would also improve the game aesthetically by basically eliminating the horribly painful sequence at the end of many basketball games where the last 3 minutes take 30 minutes of real time due to all the fouls.
    Definitely can see both sides of it. Yes, it would be nice to watch a game without the free-throw slog. Unfortunately, removing the comeback mechanism invokes the question of the cure possibly being worse than the disease. Yes, the last three minutes will be more aesthetically pleasing -- if anyone's left watching since the game will no longer be in doubt.
    Not all who wander are lost

  13. Likes:

    Revering4Blue (04-19-2013), texasdave (04-20-2013)

  14. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Bloomington, IN
    Posts
    274

    Re: Basketball Rule Change Idea

    I really like RMR's suggestion, with Caveat's caveat. It's much too radical (and logical) to ever be implemented, but it does make one wonder how end-games would play out. As is, the rules really do artificially tighten games. Would fans miss the suspense of a poor free throw-shooting team letting a game dribble away? Would it require coaches to employ more fan-friendly strategies (full court pressure, trapping, etc.) earlier in games? Would it result in more more organic outcomes?

    I'm for anything that ends the late game foul fests that most basketball games currently close with.

  15. #11
    ZCTRMTP!!!!!
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    10,795

    Re: Basketball Rule Change Idea

    If you think about it, a team with the lead could possibly hold the ball for the last 3 or 4 or 5 minutes of the game and score 6 or 8 points. If I am coaching a team that is behind and I do not have the option of fouling, then I have to press and hope to come up with steals. I can easily see a number of fouls being committed, a number of free throws being made and (if the clock is reset) a long time being run off the clock. I do not see the upside.

    Does anyone remember Dean Smith, Carolina, Phil Ford and the four corners?
    Zero chance the Reds miss the playoffs!

  16. #12
    CELEBRATION TIME RBA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    San Marcos, CA
    Posts
    13,984

    Re: Basketball Rule Change Idea

    How about. A player that commits 2 fouls in a quarter. Sits out 60 seconds or until the end of the quarter if less than 60 sec left. And his team has to play short handed. If they flop in a game, ejected for the rest of the quarter, but with replacement allowed.

  17. #13
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    15,929

    Re: Basketball Rule Change Idea

    It would be the whole game, TD. The basic contention is that fouling should never confer an advantage to the fouling team.

    I don't understand the situation you described above with the team holding the ball for minutes at a time. There is still a shot clock and it's not that hard to play tough defense, press, etc. and to not foul. Yeah, you're right, if a team is too aggressive going for steals and keeps fouling, they could give the game away; I'd suggest they probably wouldn't do that.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 04-20-2013 at 12:04 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  18. #14
    Charlie Brown All-Star IslandRed's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Melbourne, FL
    Posts
    4,838

    Re: Basketball Rule Change Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    There is still a shot clock and it's not that hard to play tough defense, press, etc. and to not foul.
    The history of basketball asks, "since when?" (Assuming we're talking a relatively evenly-matched game -- if Team A can shut down Team B without hardly ever fouling, they're way better and they're going to win anyway.) Tough defense or effective pressing requires proximity and aggressiveness, which creates a greater chance of contact, which results in fouls. If you doubt, all you have to do is watch a team at the end of a game that's been told, "whatever you do, don't foul." They have to consciously dial back and play more passively. All-out D involves risk.

    Anyway, if we're going to be real sticklers about never gaining an advantage by breaking the rules... there isn't much difference between a foul and walking someone, is there? After all, the base on balls was created as a penalty for not following the rules (i.e. the pitcher is supposed to throw strikes so the hitter has the opportunity to put the ball in play), yet the defensive team sometimes gladly accepts the penalty as a preferable outcome.* But most of the time, walks and fouls are not intentional. They are merely routine parts of their respective games as played by imperfect humans.

    * Can you imagine if Joey Votto had the option of declining the penalty, so to speak, and just stayed at the plate until he either put it in play or struck out? Hmmm... wait... I might be talking myself into this.
    Not all who wander are lost

  19. #15
    Winning is fun.
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Urbana, OH
    Posts
    793

    Re: Basketball Rule Change Idea

    It is an interesting idea and one that I'd like to take more time to think about. My first reaction is that on the college and high school levels there would be one major unintended consequence of such a penalty for fouling... refs would simply call even less fouls than they do now. Referees hate to "decide" the game in the last few possessions of a game so they would be even slower to call a foul if it has that much impact. And I think they would call less in the beginnings of each half knowing that each foul gets a team that much closer to such a huge advantage being in the bonus.


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | BCubb2003 | dabvu2498 | Gallen5862 | LexRedsFan | Plus Plus | RedlegJake | redsfan1995 | The Operator | Tommyjohn25