Joey Votto's Tools

[Jamz]

It was a discussion that kind of picked up in the game thread but I just wanted to see what people thought of his tools here. A few of the things said were that he wasn't an "elite talent" and that he only had 1 "elite tool" and he has really just made the most of his work ethic and determination.

I personally disagree. I think he has 3 elite tools.

Hit tool: Elite, obviously, probably the best pure batter in the game.

Power tool: Elite, in my opinion. Top 15 in the league since 2009 in ISO (Isolated Power). Has a 39 HR year and averages 34 homeruns per 162 games.

Glove tool: Elite...gold glover. Wasn't a strength originally but he has turned it into one.

This is just looking at traditional tools. Not taking into account athleticism, patience, bat control, bat speed, pitch recognition, etc.

[_Sir_Charles_]

i said he's not an elite talent which he's not. Players Like Trout, Pujols, Kemp, carlos gonzalez are elite talents. Votto is a player that gets the absolute most out of what he has

This is what started it. Considering Maker's rep, he got ripped as you'd expect. I however kind of agreed with him. But when I started explaining my point of view...I either explained it poorly or got misunderstood/misread.

Actually, I think I agree with him on that one. Votto has an elite contact tool...but that's about it. He's above average with power. His arm and speed are average. Production-wise, he's VERY elite...but from a scouting standpoint, he doesn't have many "elite" tools.

He is an elite play no matter how people want to define it.

An elite PLAYER....absolutely. I'm looking at it from the standpoint of a scout. When you look at a player's tools. How would YOU rate Votto's tools...without looking at the whole package. Because Votto is MORE than the sum of his parts to be sure.

I guess I wasn't aware that anything other than "production-wise" mattered.

Re-read what I was posting. Votto is simply put the best player in the league, quite possibly the best player in the bigs. I was talking about his individual tools. His speed tool. His hit tool. His power tool. Etc.

Votto was a second-round draft choice. The scouts saw more than just his contact ability I would think. I doubt if Country Kepp went in the second round. (Actually Keppinger went in the 4th round)

Very true. But how about the question I posed. What "tools" would you consider elite by Votto? I'm not bashing Joey at all. It's actually high praise. He possesses things that can't be measured by scouts and they push him into another stratosphere. His intelligence and work ethic alone give him the ability to get more out of his skill set than the vast majority of MLB players. In that vein...he's somewhat similar to Pete Rose.

An 80 hit tool isn't elite.

LOL. I swear, people aren't reading my posts. Joey's hit tool is the one tool of his that is elite. Hell, it's WAY BEYOND elite.

How would you rate Pujols' tools? How would you have rated Babe Ruth's tools? Both guys had only power and contact skills and are two of the greatest players to play the game. You don't have to have all 5 tools to be an elite talent.

Very true. Has anybody seen me say that Votto isn't an elite player? Both Pujols and Ruth would've had elite contact & power tools for sure. So...of the 5 tools, how many would you consider to be elite for Votto?

I really think people are confusing what I'm saying when I say "elite player" and "elite talent" or "elite skills". Votto has a few elite talents/skills, but he maximizes his talents/skills along with his other traits to make himself an elite player. Clearer?

Votto is the best player in the NL imo. He may be the best player in MLB.

The best, or very close to it, hitter in baseball. Gold Glove defense. I don't think you accomplish all of that being an average athlete. JMO. I acknowledge that I am not down there on the field with these guys. But the results speak for themselves.

You do when you have Votto's work ethic and his baseball IQ and his plate discipline. He's not exceptionally fast, exceptionally strong, possessing a powerful arm, etc. Joey is the exception to many a rule.

He plays "elite" defense also.

He does now, I agree. That's not due to quick feet or reflexes...it's due to an otherworldly work ethic. He was very average in the minors and his first year or so up here. He's made the most out of the tools he had. More than many thought were possible.

Votto's pitch recognition and discipline are beyond elite. They are uncanny. His hand-eye-coordination is tremendous. Those are elite tools.

He also has the power to drive the ball to the opposite field, something not a lot of guys can do.

He is an elite hitter. I don't know how anyone could argue otherwise in this case.

Nobody is arguing that Brutus. What are the 5 tools that scouts use?

Arm strength, running speed, hitting for average, hitting for power, fielding.

Votto is average in arm and running. He's above average in power. He's a monster in average. He was average in fielding but he's worked his way into above average.

Looking at that, you see 1 elite tool/skill/talent. right?

Look at the whole package...a beast.

You don't get to be an elite player without having elite talent. Players without elite skills aren't elite players. You can be a very good player without elite talent, but you're not going to rise above your peers without it.

Disagree. Strongly. The whole player is many times worth more than the sum of his "tools".

You're really not making much sense. You were just arguing that he wasn't elite in tools, but now you're saying the sum of the tools don't matter as much as the big picture. So clearly he's an elite talent if he possesses elite talent or else he wouldn't be an elite player.

LOL. Apparently I'm not.

Let's try again. I think he has 1 elite tool (hit) and some above average tools (power, defense) a some average tools (speed & arm).

He's not an overall elite talent physically. Drew stubbs is. Drew has been unable to capitalize on those tools to make the most of his physical talents. Joey has been able to not only capitalize on his physical talents, he's been able to surpass even the most optimistic projections for him. Like Pete Rose, he's turned himself into a player who not only maximizes his capabilities, he goes beyond what he should be able to do you would think. Pete did it with work ethic and hustle, Votto did it with work ethic and out thinking the opposition.

Both guys were/are elite players without possessing elite physical tools in abundance.

Now lets drop this and walk this baby off!!!!!

I thought I'd gather the quotes in order so they make some sense....it's hard to follow with all the in-game chatter. I know I was wanting to drop it because it was making it hard for me to follow the game, and that's far more important than this stuff. Anyway, have at it.

[New York Red]

His biggest strength is between his ears.

[_Sir_Charles_]

It was a discussion that kind of picked up in the game thread but I just wanted to see what people thought of his tools here. A few of the things said were that he wasn't an "elite talent" and that he only had 1 "elite tool" and he has really just made the most of his work ethic and determination.

I personally disagree. I think he has 3 elite tools.

Hit tool: Elite, obviously, probably the best pure batter in the game.

Power tool: Elite, in my opinion. Top 15 in the league since 2009 in ISO (Isolated Power). Has a 39 HR year and averages 34 homeruns per 162 games.

Glove tool: Elite...gold glover. Wasn't a strength originally but he has turned it into one.

This is just looking at traditional tools. Not taking into account athleticism, patience, bat control, bat speed, pitch recognition, etc.

I think the power tool is just above average. Remember where he's hitting a bunch of those homers. I also reduce it a bit because he sacrifices power quite a bit. He routinely chokes up with 2 strikes. He'll also sacrifice power based on the situation, another aspect of his intelligence as a hitter. If putting the ball in play to a certain part of the field will win the game, don't swing for the fences. :O)

[RedsfaninMT]

I see this as a matter of semantics at this point. It seems like the argument is that Votto is not an elite athlete, not whether he is an elite baseball player. I can't recall, but somewhere I read about Votto's vertical leap, and it was actually quite impressive.

As another poster said, only OF and SS would qualify on these discussed standards as an elite player. It all seems rather pointless to me.

Votto is one of the best hitters in baseball, and has become one of the best gloves at his position. Both add up to make him an elite player. Elite athlete? I don't know his "tools" there.

[NebraskaRed]

There are "natural" athletes, and those with the mental capacity (and a strong will) to learn how to be a great athlete. To me, Votto is both. I believe he's probably more of the second type, but what makes him so great is his natural talent combined with his mental ability.

[Nathan]

Votto = Rose

[_Sir_Charles_]

Just to be clear, that's not what I'm saying. They have SOME similarities.

[RedsBaron]

Votto = Rose

Votto > Rose for peak value

But for his gambling, Rose would be in the HOF, and his career value obviously vastly exceeds Votto's career value at present--but for peak value Joey outranks Pete.

[wolfboy]

His biggest strength is between his ears.

Or his espresso machine.

[Degenerate39]

I was scared to open this thread when I saw tool

[RedEye]

Power tool: Elite, in my opinion. Top 15 in the league since 2009 in ISO (Isolated Power). Has a 39 HR year and averages 34 homeruns per 162 games.

You mean a 37 HR season, right? 2010?

[mbgrayson]

Votto > Rose for peak value

But for his gambling, Rose would be in the HOF, and his career value obviously vastly exceeds Votto's career value at present--but for peak value Joey outranks Pete.

Has Joey reached his peak yet? He turns 30 in September....

So far, Pete has the highest single season WAR (wins above replacement) between the two:

1973 Pete won the MVP and had a 8.3 WAR
2010 Joey won the MVP and had a 7.2 WAR

Rose also had seven other seasons of 5.0 WAR or higher. Besides his MVP year, Joey has two others seasons so far with over 5.0 WAR.

[RedsBaron]

Has Joey reached his peak yet? He turns 30 in September....

So far, Pete has the highest single season WAR (wins above replacement) between the two:

1973 Pete won the MVP and had a 8.3 WAR
2010 Joey won the MVP and had a 7.2 WAR

Rose also had seven other seasons of 5.0 WAR or higher. Besides his MVP year, Joey has two others seasons so far with over 5.0 WAR.

I found that to be of interest. Had I sold my boyhood idol short in ranking Votto higher than Rose for peak value, without doing any research first?
Although Pete's 1973 season did have a higher WAR than Joey's 2010 season, I still like Joey's season better. While Pete had the higher average, .338 to .324, Joey lead in OBP, .401 to .424 (I am listing Rose's stats first in this comparison), in SLG, .437 to .600, and OPS, .838 to 1.024. Essentially in Joey you get a guy who gets on base as often or even better than Pete, while having a huge lead in power (Joey hit 37 HR while Pete hit 7).
Only once in his career did Rose have an OPS over .900, the 1969 season when he hit .940. Votto has a career OPS of .969, with single seasons the last five years of .981, 1.024, .947, 1.041 and .975 through yesterday.
Pete was the better base runner, though no Joe Morgan, and the more versatile defensively. Maybe Pete gets credit for being a better team leader, but that might just be rewarding him for being more vocal. Pete certainly deserves credit for his amazing durability.
All that said, WAR or no WAR, I still like Votto for peak value.

[WrongVerb]

This is what started it. Considering Maker's rep, he got ripped as you'd expect. I however kind of agreed with him. But when I started explaining my point of view...I either explained it poorly or got misunderstood/misread.

This is my view, and at the risk of putting words into your mouth, perhaps this is what you were trying to say:

Skill is the ability to do something. Talent is the innate ability to apply skill in a given situation. That means a player can have a lot of natural talent and some less-than-refined skills, and still be successful. Those are your good, solid every day players. Or a player can have well-refined skills but less than great talent and also be successful. I think most journeymen players could fall into that category. And then you have great talent and well-refined skill. Those are the true superstars.