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Thread: Joey Votto's Tools

  1. #16
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    Re: Joey Votto's Tools

    80 hit
    55 power
    50 field
    45 arm
    35 run

    Those are my grades. One "elite" tool is what I see. Thankfully there are so many other things to grade, and that one elite tool he has is by far the most important. He's got an 80 approach and 80 competitiveness.

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  3. #17
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    Re: Joey Votto's Tools

    I will say, as a whole, fans over-rate or over estimate tools all the time. There aren't many players with "elite" or 80 tools.

    80 raw power are guys like Stanton and Josh Hamilton. Votto is not on their level in power. Neither is Jay Bruce, and Bruce has a better power tool than Votto.

    The same goes for the run tool. An average runner is particularly fast. There aren't many 80 runners in baseball, let alone 70's. Billy Hamilton is an 80...Mike Trout is an 80. There are a few others in the big leagues, but not many.

    I'm shocked Doug hasn't chimed in yet...I thought he got a text on his phone every time the word "tool" is used on this site.

  4. #18
    Flash the leather! _Sir_Charles_'s Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto's Tools

    Quote Originally Posted by TOBTTReds View Post
    80 hit
    55 power
    50 field
    45 arm
    35 run

    Those are my grades. One "elite" tool is what I see. Thankfully there are so many other things to grade, and that one elite tool he has is by far the most important. He's got an 80 approach and 80 competitiveness.
    I'd agree with this, but I'd probably rate his power a tad higher and his arm a tad lower.
    Chapman to the rotation!!!! Do it already!!!!

  5. #19
    always ask questions bigredmechanism's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto's Tools

    Quote Originally Posted by TOBTTReds View Post
    80 hit
    55 power
    50 field
    45 arm
    35 run

    Those are my grades. One "elite" tool is what I see. Thankfully there are so many other things to grade, and that one elite tool he has is by far the most important. He's got an 80 approach and 80 competitiveness.
    I'm assuming the defensive grades are relative to all players and not just players at their position?
    Award Winning Baseball Player

  6. #20
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto's Tools

    I would think Joey probably has a lot of tools from William Sonoma. They have some kickass coffee machines there. If I made $17 million this year, I'd definitely cash in on one of those.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  7. #21
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    Re: Joey Votto's Tools

    Quote Originally Posted by TOBTTReds View Post
    80 hit
    55 power
    50 field
    45 arm
    35 run

    Those are my grades. One "elite" tool is what I see. Thankfully there are so many other things to grade, and that one elite tool he has is by far the most important. He's got an 80 approach and 80 competitiveness.
    I think you really underrate his power, He missed 50 games last year and still lead the league in walks, that's not just because of his eye, he's the guy you don't want to throw a mistake to. He also doesn't always use his power, as many as said, he treats 0-0 pitches as 0-2 pitches against good pitchers, he's not like Dunn looking for just the homer. If he had protection consistently behind him, and he swung for homers, he'd have at least 2 seasons 40+.

    As for the GABP argument, it doesn't hold water for Votto, he slugs better on the road. (Career #'s)
    Home OPS: 408/544/952
    Away OPS: 429/556/985

  8. #22
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    Re: Joey Votto's Tools

    Quote Originally Posted by bigredmechanism View Post
    I'm assuming the defensive grades are relative to all players and not just players at their position?
    The Grade Is 1B Defense

  9. #23
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    Re: Joey Votto's Tools

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    I found that to be of interest. Had I sold my boyhood idol short in ranking Votto higher than Rose for peak value, without doing any research first?
    Although Pete's 1973 season did have a higher WAR than Joey's 2010 season, I still like Joey's season better. While Pete had the higher average, .338 to .324, Joey lead in OBP, .401 to .424 (I am listing Rose's stats first in this comparison), in SLG, .437 to .600, and OPS, .838 to 1.024. Essentially in Joey you get a guy who gets on base as often or even better than Pete, while having a huge lead in power (Joey hit 37 HR while Pete hit 7).
    Only once in his career did Rose have an OPS over .900, the 1969 season when he hit .940. Votto has a career OPS of .969, with single seasons the last five years of .981, 1.024, .947, 1.041 and .975 through yesterday.
    Pete was the better base runner, though no Joe Morgan, and the more versatile defensively. Maybe Pete gets credit for being a better team leader, but that might just be rewarding him for being more vocal. Pete certainly deserves credit for his amazing durability.
    All that said, WAR or no WAR, I still like Votto for peak value.
    Era adjustment matters. 1967 looks a LOT different than today.

    Now...I'll still take Votto. The wonder of Pete's career wasn't the peak, but the shear breadth of it. Joey will have to play till 2030 to get the same number of years and that simply is not going to happen.
    "Even a bad day at the ballpark beats the snot out of most other good days. I'll take my scorecard and pencil and beer and hot dog and rage at the dips and cheer at the highs, but I'm not ever going to stop loving this game and this team and nobody will ever take that away from me." Roy Tucker October 2010

  10. #24
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Joey Votto's Tools

    Quote Originally Posted by dfs View Post
    Era adjustment matters. 1967 looks a LOT different than today.

    Now...I'll still take Votto. The wonder of Pete's career wasn't the peak, but the shear breadth of it. Joey will have to play till 2030 to get the same number of years and that simply is not going to happen.
    Oh I know the eras matter. However if you use Baseball Reference.com's Stats Neutralizer there is still quite a gap between Rose's batting stats in 1973, his best WAR year, and Votto's 2010 season.
    Votto's numbers are virtually unchanged by the Stats Neutralizer, which would indicate 2010 offensive numbers were close to the historical average of 716 runs per team over a 162 game season. He still checks in with a slash line of .324/.424/.600 and an OPS of 1.024. Rose's numbers do improve, with Pete's average going up from .338 to .354, and his OBP increasing to .418 and his SLG increasing to .458, for a neutralized OPS of .876.
    Even with the Stats Neutralizer Joey keeps a huge lead in power, with 37 HRs to Pete's 5 (in my prior post I typed that Pete had 7 HRs in 1973-he actually had 5). Joey also has 36 doubles and 2 triples to Pete's 39 and 9.
    In short, Joey Votto in peak form is Pete Rose's equal and even a bit better at getting on base, and is a much better power hitter.
    If Pete had huge leads over Joey as a baserunner, in defense, and/or intangibles, I would give Pete the edge. I do rate Pete higher in those categories, but not by enough to offset the 1.024 to .876 difference in OPS. Even with his higher WAR score, I would not take Rose's 1973 season over Votto's 2010 season.
    Career value is an entirely different matter.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."


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