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Thread: Tony Cingrani Thread

  1. #331
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    Cingrani only gave up three hits yesterday and got burned on a poorly located fastball and a change-up for home runs.

    He has been successful enough for him to continue to learn at in the Show, no reason to send him down. I feel he'd learn more from Price than down in AAA.
    Last edited by holster10; 05-05-2013 at 08:19 AM.

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  3. #332
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    Cingrani has another start under his belt after tonight.

    We knew he was fastball heavy coming in. His fastball is his bread and butter, no question about it. The amount of guys who can throw a fastball 80%+ of the time and continue to have success don't come around often.

    So this thought went through my head tonight: At what point does some of this blame go on the Reds and on the different catchers? Ryan Hanigan caught tonight. One of his noted skills is "great game caller". He called 45 straight fastballs to begin the game and 59 of the first 60 pitches he called were fastballs.

    When does someone besides the pitcher get some blame here? Cingrani has more pitches and even though they aren't as good as his fastball, they are good enough to use more than one time out of 40 or 50 or even 60. So when does someone decide to change up the routine of throwing 80-90% fastballs and mix in some off speed stuff 30% of the time for a game?

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  5. #333
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Cingrani has another start under his belt after tonight.

    We knew he was fastball heavy coming in. His fastball is his bread and butter, no question about it. The amount of guys who can throw a fastball 80%+ of the time and continue to have success don't come around often.

    So this thought went through my head tonight: At what point does some of this blame go on the Reds and on the different catchers? Ryan Hanigan caught tonight. One of his noted skills is "great game caller". He called 45 straight fastballs to begin the game and 59 of the first 60 pitches he called were fastballs.

    When does someone besides the pitcher get some blame here? Cingrani has more pitches and even though they aren't as good as his fastball, they are good enough to use more than one time out of 40 or 50 or even 60. So when does someone decide to change up the routine of throwing 80-90% fastballs and mix in some off speed stuff 30% of the time for a game?
    Do you think perhaps the reason he's calling that many fastballs is because Cingrani isn't comfortable with anything else yet?

    We know that Chapman's relying solely on fastballs was more of an organizational decision. It's possible they don't feel Cingrani is ready for other pitches yet. It seems you're so hellbent on downplaying Hanigan's influence, you'll ignore any other factor that might mitigate something.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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  7. #334
    The rest is drama. marcshoe's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    Part of the solution may well be to send Cingrani to Louisville when Cueto comes back (soon, it seems) so he can get comfortable throwing other pitches. Even though he's been more successful than Leake, the Reds' interest lies in creating a foundation for his continued success. So if this happens, can we please not whine too much?

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  9. #335
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Do you think perhaps the reason he's calling that many fastballs is because Cingrani isn't comfortable with anything else yet?

    We know that Chapman's relying solely on fastballs was more of an organizational decision. It's possible they don't feel Cingrani is ready for other pitches yet. It seems you're so hellbent on downplaying Hanigan's influence, you'll ignore any other factor that might mitigate something.
    I think you completely misunderstood what I was trying to say. I was actually suggesting that it was an organizational thing because of how "Hanigan called the game" today.

    Mesoraco called a similar game. Miller called similar games (at the Major League level - in the minors to start this year, Cingrani was seemingly throwing a few more offspeed pitches than he has in the Majors).

    I don't think it isn't some on the catcher, but I think it is on the organization even more so. They need to basically have a "if the catcher puts a sign down, you throw that pitch" rule in place. If Cingrani isn't ready enough to throw anything but a fastball in the Majors, he shouldn't be here. I doubt that the Reds believe the only pitch he can throw to Major Leaguers is his fastball. Something needs to be done in order to get him to mix things up some.

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  11. #336
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Cingrani has another start under his belt after tonight.

    We knew he was fastball heavy coming in. His fastball is his bread and butter, no question about it. The amount of guys who can throw a fastball 80%+ of the time and continue to have success don't come around often.

    So this thought went through my head tonight: At what point does some of this blame go on the Reds and on the different catchers? Ryan Hanigan caught tonight. One of his noted skills is "great game caller". He called 45 straight fastballs to begin the game and 59 of the first 60 pitches he called were fastballs.

    When does someone besides the pitcher get some blame here? Cingrani has more pitches and even though they aren't as good as his fastball, they are good enough to use more than one time out of 40 or 50 or even 60. So when does someone decide to change up the routine of throwing 80-90% fastballs and mix in some off speed stuff 30% of the time for a game?
    Bryan Price will likely continue to instruct Cingrani to throw 85% fastballs until the hitters start hitting them. So far his 85% fastball usage has been extremely effective, so why change it? If/when Cingrani's current "mix" of pitches begins to prove insufficient or his performance falters then I am sure the team will have him make some adjustments. Right now he is rolling so let it rip!

  12. #337
    THAT'S A FACT JACK!! GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    Tony labored yesterday. Yeah, it was only one start, but it can't be discounted. He threw a lot of pitches in 4 innings. My "concern" for a young guy who, at this stage, relies very heavily on his fastball, is his average innings per start and the subsequent PC. He's averaging 5 1/2 innings and throwing close to 100 pitches.

    Why is he throwing so many FBs? ... or why are the catchers calling for them?

    Because that is his "bread n butter" that helped him dominate at the various minor league levels, blow through batters, and what got him here. Not his "secondary" pitches (change-up, breaking ball), which most scouting reports say are average and in need of further development.

    What helps Cingrani, whose FB averages in the low 90s, will peak in the mid-90s at times, is that his deceptive mechanics make it tougher to pick up the ball.

    But there are still some very valid concerns with this kid....

    1) Will his over reliability on that fastball, which he uses so often, hinder the development of his secondary stuff which, at the major league level, is needed?

    2) Is the major league level, vs better, more experienced hitters, really the place we want him trying to develop them?

    I don't discount his success at the minor league levels, but one can get away with more because you aren't facing the same level, and experience, when it comes to hitters at the major league level.

    I thought it was interesting, as per FanGraphs, that Cingrani throws his FB 82% of the time, while Verlander only throws his 57%. In fact, only two starters who throw their fastball more than Cingrani are Ross Detwiler and Bartolo Colon.

    If Cueto comes back next week, I think they'll pull Tony in, give him a pep talk, tell him how proud they were of his performance while here, he has a bright future with the Reds, really build him up.... then send him down because they want him to develop further and possibly become even a better pitcher then what we have witnessed so far. Yeah, I think that is possible.

    And it's not the fact that he doesn't deserve to be here; but that there is no place for him in the starting rotation unless they basically dump somebody. And with everyone talking about Leake .. and I don't see them moving Mike to the BP .... I just don't think they'll make that rash decision, possibly end up losing him, when they don't need to at this stage and can KEEP BOTH. Why risk losing an arm when there is still uncertainty, valid concerns about this young man?
    Last edited by GAC; 05-11-2013 at 06:02 AM.
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  14. #338
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    I think he goes down just to work on secondary stuff also. Nice to have a kid that good still working on things in triple A
    "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"

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  16. #339
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    Watching Cingrani sit at 93-94 from the left side throwing mostly fastballs makes me wonder how they would have been coaching Chapman in the rotation. What would his mix be?
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

  17. #340
    malingered here too long malcontent's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    Watching Cingrani sit at 93-94 from the left side throwing mostly fastballs makes me wonder how they would have been coaching Chapman in the rotation. What would his mix be?
    Probably 90% FB, 9% SL, and 1% CH.
    Everything is perfect, but there is a lot of room for improvement. --- Shunryu Suzuki-roshi

  18. #341
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    In watching Cingrani so far, he's been burned by strong righty power hitters like Soriano and Braun. I think with some coaching, Cingrani can avoid this issue and be more effective.

    I thought Dusty pulled him Friday because the Brewers are a heavily RHH team. Dusty doesn't like to use lefties against such lineups. Sean Marshall generally sits against them. Dusty may not have liked Cingrani against Mil from the outset.

    Sure, I'd like to see more dependence on secondary pitches, but I think Cingrani can be effective with modest changes and some smarter pitching against big righty hitters.

    Seems like he will go down to AAA, but I wouldn't be upset if he stays. He's a certain type pitcher, he's the anti-Greg Maddox, but he has good stuff and seems pretty close to ready for prime time.
    Last edited by Kc61; 05-11-2013 at 09:55 PM.

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  20. #342
    Brett William Moore Will M's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    I read that the reason Cingrani's next start has been moved back a day is due to "shoulder soreness"
    .

  21. #343
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    Here's a link to the soreness. Doesn't sound bad but you know how that goes. They will be amputating tomorrow.

    http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/201...-for-soreness/
    Reds Fan Since 1971

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  23. #344
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    When does someone besides the pitcher get some blame here? Cingrani has more pitches and even though they aren't as good as his fastball, they are good enough to use more than one time out of 40 or 50 or even 60. So when does someone decide to change up the routine of throwing 80-90% fastballs and mix in some off speed stuff 30% of the time for a game?
    I think at the major league level, the priority is to win the game. The heavy FB strategy is working, so I can see why they want to do it.
    We'd all be less happier if Cingrani threw 30% offspeed pitches and and got hammered and strained the bullpen.

    Once Cingrani is sent to AAA, I wholeheartedly agree.. he needs to use his secondary pitches a lot more frequently. Blowing away minor league hitters with his FB isn't going to teach him anything. In fact, this is a strong reason to demote him when Cueto comes back.
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  24. #345
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cumberlandreds View Post
    Here's a link to the soreness. Doesn't sound bad but you know how that goes. They will be amputating tomorrow.

    http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/201...-for-soreness/
    That sounds like they needed a reason to change things up... Move the rookie around rather than the veteran for whatever reason and less questions seem to be asked
    I know a lot of people are talking about his on-base percentage (.308 in 2008), but I like to think more in terms of him his in-scoring position percentage. - Our Beloved Manager


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