Tony Cingrani Thread

[MrRedLegger]

Paging Wally Pipp....

[mdccclxix]

I'd like to add Baumgardner to this list of pre-accomplishments.

[Vottomatic]

"Cingrani is nothing more than a future reliever, didn't you guys hear?"

Signed,

2012

Who are you quoting?

[Vottomatic]

I'm starting to feel a bit sorry for Mike Leake.

He's on a team that has Cueto, Latos, Bailey and Cingrani. That would suck trying to live up to those guys.

[Brutus]

Leake's been demonstrably mediocre for over a year now.

Leake's SIERA the past 35 starts is just barely over 4.00. The Major League average ERA in that same time is 4.15.

You've been constantly belaboring this Leake thing to the point where it's no longer being discussed consistently with reality.

[Bumstead]

Leake's SIERA the past 35 starts is just barely over 4.00. The Major League average ERA in that same time is 4.15.

You've been constantly belaboring this Leake thing to the point where it's no longer being discussed consistently with reality.

So, assuming that is the case, do you think Leake should remain in the rotation even if he's the 6th best starter on the team? I mean, say we take away the "mediocre" comment and agree that he is a solid 4th starter on most teams, why should the Reds keep their 6th best starter in the rotation when he can help them elsewhere and the Reds can have better starting pitching? This is professional baseball after all and I always thought the best players should be the one's playing regardless of their experience level.

Bum

[Caveat Emperor]

Leake's SIERA the past 35 starts is just barely over 4.00. The Major League average ERA in that same time is 4.15.

You've been constantly belaboring this Leake thing to the point where it's no longer being discussed consistently with reality.

me·di·o·cre
/ˌmēdēˈōkər/
Adjective
Of only moderate quality; not very good: "a mediocre actor".
Synonyms
middling - moderate - indifferent - ordinary - mean

Middling, Ordinary, Moderate would seem to be fairly accurate description of Mike Leake based on even your own post.

[RedEye]

Whether or not Mike Leake qualifies as "mediocre" would seem to be a different argument than whether or not he should be one of the Reds starters. Right?

[Homer Bailey]

"Cingrani is nothing more than a future reliever, didn't you guys hear?"

Signed,

2012

Is that what the quote was? Or was it maybe that some people were of the opinion that his stuff projected better for him to be a reliever? Exaggerating well researched positions doesn't help facilitate discussion.

[NebraskaRed]

And a slightly better than average ERA is not "bad". Mediocre is not "bad". Bad is bad. You can argue that he should or shouldn't be a starter, but suggesting that because (so far in his career) his ERA is slightly below average, therefore that makes him unfit to be in someone's starting rotation is a bit silly.

[holster10]

3 starts people and the comps. and projections have already begun....unbelievable!

[The Operator]

Please keep the Cingrani discussion to the designated "Tony Cingrani Thread" so as not to clutter the forum with redundant topics. Thanks.

[GAC]

Yes, three starts in the majors, GAC. I get that. But this weird "he has to prove it" stuff that people fall back on with regard to kids moving into the majors always feels odd to me, as there is no way to "prove it" without getting a chance to...prove it.

So how to determine if someone should get that chance? Well, all we have there, really, from our viewpoint (since we don't get to hang with scouts etc.), is what they have done in the minors. And Cingrani's minors track record is exemplary. And what he has done in three starts in the majors is in line with what we saw in the minors. It isn't like this is someone with a career 4.26 FIP in the minors and a middling K:BB ratio throughout his minor league stops and has then turned in a 3-start supernova in the majors out of line with what we have seen before. No, this is pretty much who Cingrani has been as he has moved up.

So, really, "its just 3 starts" is a nice thing to recite and what not, but it isn't like that "just 3 starts" is divorced from the body of work he has turned in before this...

I agree with everything you're saying mem. And if he continues to perform well he will get his shot. The problem is once Cueto returns. They aren't going with a 6 man rotation, and someone has to be the odd-man out of that rotation.

So I don't understand what you think they should do? Just ditch Leake? They aren't, IMO, going to put him in the BP, and they can't ship him to the minors.

Maybe leake should go down to AAA and prove something for 20 days...

From what I understand, and because he has 3 years service time, he can't be removed from the 40 man roster without his permission. He can be released or "designated for assignment" where he is then open to the waiver wire where another team can claim him; but this FO is not going to do so easily discard the arm. He's our #5, hasn't been a total disaster at 1-1 w/ an ERA of 4.34. But if he continues to "struggle" as the season progresses they may very well have to make a decision AT SOME POINT. And that could open the door further for Cingrani.

[mth123]

From what I understand, and because he has 3 years service time, he can't be removed from the 40 man roster without his permission. He can be released or "designated for assignment" where he is then open to the waiver wire where another team can claim him; but this FO is not going to do so easily discard the arm. He's our #5, hasn't been a total disaster at 1-1 w/ an ERA of 4.34. But if he continues to "struggle" as the season progresses they may very well have to make a decision AT SOME POINT. And that could open the door further for Cingrani.

Close. There is what is called a "veterans consent" rule. Because Leake first appeared on a major league roster more than 3 years ago, he can't be optioned to the minors without his permission. Even though Leake has options remaining, because of the time involved since he first came to the majors, he can only be sent to the minors if he agrees. If he doesn't agree and the Reds want to send him down, he would need to be offered to every other team for the waiver price. If another team would want him, the Reds would either need to choose to keep him on the major league roster or give him to the team that claimed him so that he could keep his major league job. If no one else wants him on the major league roster, the Reds could send him down. Fat chance of that happening. I'd guess 29 other teams would put a claim in on Leake.

The Reds were able to option Logan Ondrusek before the season started, and I may be mistaken, but I think he's now in the same boat. He first appeared in the big leagues on April 5, 2010. Maybe some one can verify that.

Once all of the options have been used up on a player, a player is considered "out of options" and a player must be placed on and clear waivers prior to being sent down to the minor leagues (there is also the "veterans' consent" rule; see below). Additionally, three years after the date of a player’s first appearance on a major-league roster, he must clear optional waivers (which are revocable) to be optioned even if he has options remaining.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_L...l_transactions

[mth123]

I may have missed one, but the only guys, I think, on the pitching staff that the Reds can option to the minors at will - without waivers being involved - are Tony Cingrani, Sam Lecure and JJ Hoover. Lecure will need to give his permisson by the end of May.