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Thread: Tony Cingrani Thread

  1. #166
    Member Billy Hamilton's Legs's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani for Cy Young/Rookie of the Year?

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Sending Cingrani down now does nothing to his Free Agent clock. It only effects his arbitration clock. Keeping him up doesn't mean the Reds will have have him under their control for any less years, it just means they will have to pay him more.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the FA clock determined by the amount of service time on the 25 man roster? by limiting his innings on the ML roster, his FA could be delayed. Homer Bailey is an example, although I don't know how the DL plays into this
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  3. #167
    Member membengal's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    GAC...its more than 3 starts. He has established one helluva track record as he's moved through the minors. Each step up, we've been told, NOW will be the time he's found out. And each step up he puts up the same crazy lines.

    Just saying, its not like he's a cipher. Or that this is out of line with what he has done at each stop...

    Perhaps when he moves up to the league above this one he will finally be found out...

  4. #168
    The Big Dog mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    Here is the logic most are missing. The Reds didn't think Cingrani was ready coming out of Spring Training. He still had things to accomplish in AAA. So are we to believe that he accomplished those things in 14 and third innings in AAA? He's come up and he's doing well with the things he does have, but it's working, IMO, because he's new to the league. Familiarity will catch-up to him unless he adds those other facets to his game that he was sent down to work on. The team could ride him for a while and he'd probably be a real asset for a couple of months, but then what? Another arm goes down, the league will have caught-up to Cingrani and he won't have the assortment he needs to adjust. After him, there is no one that I want to see making a start in this rotation and the team may be a starter short. I'm loving what Cingrani is doing now, but I want him for the long haul, not as some one pitch wonder who flashes hot for a month or two and then gets pounded.

    The season goes, hopefully, deep into October. The Reds are going to need Cingrani at the end IMO. If that means he goes down for a while when the opportunity presents itself with the others all healthy, I say it's the smart play. If his other stuff comes along at the big league level and the team thinks he can adjust when he needs to, then by all means, send Leake to the pen and keep Cingrani in there. OTOH, if this is him getting by on one pitch, I think it's short sighted to ride him until it stops working unless they think he's ready to adjust. If they thought he was ready for that, why did they send him down to begin with?
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

    Having better players makes "the right time" or "the big hit" happen a lot more often. PLUS PLUS

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  6. #169
    Danger is my business! oneupper's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    GAC...its more than 3 starts. He has established one helluva track record as he's moved through the minors. Each step up, we've been told, NOW will be the time he's found out. And each step up he puts up the same crazy lines.

    Just saying, its not like he's a cipher. Or that this is out of line with what he has done at each stop...

    Perhaps when he moves up to the league above this one he will finally be found out...
    This is exactly it. I looked up his minor league numbers and they are absolutely sick. Consistently crazy good.
    Frankly I had no idea they were that good.

    The Reds may actually have something special in him.
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

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  7. #170
    Box of Frogs edabbs44's Avatar
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SweetLou1990 View Post
    Anytime Leake pitches, there is a good chance the reds lose. Game 4 of the NLDS (2012) with Leake? The guy was left off of the initial 25 man postseason roster for a reason, and he hasn't gotten better stuff since then.

    When is Cueto back?
    For reference, the Reds are 45-38 in games where Leake starts over his career.

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  9. #171
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    Re: Cingrani for Cy Young/Rookie of the Year?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Hamilton's Legs View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the FA clock determined by the amount of service time on the 25 man roster? by limiting his innings on the ML roster, his FA could be delayed. Homer Bailey is an example, although I don't know how the DL plays into this
    Yes, this is true.

    I will do my best to explain some things, and if I am off on something please correct me. Yet here is my understanding of arbitration and free agency rules....

    Super 2 status does not affect his free agency. It just makes him eligible for arbitration a year sooner. Super 2 is variable, but teams normally wait until June to prevent Super 2 status (I won't go into all the rules about Super 2). Super 2 is not as big of a deal for fans since it's all about money. So the only concern there is the team paying a guy a few million more for 1 year.

    For free agency, a full year of service time is 172 days on the active 25 man roster, DL, in the military (yes, that is one of the rules), or under suspension. The season is 182 days. In order to prevent a minor leaguer from gaining a year of MLB service, they simply have to fall short of the 172 days. Yet, if a guy is on the 40 man roster they need to spend 20 days in the minors for that to subtract from their MLB service time. I believe Cingrani was on the 40 man and did not spend 20 days in the minors (it was really, really close), so if he stays on the 25 man for the season it will count as 1 year MLB service time. IIRC, he also cannot be shut down in September (when rosters expand) and sent down in order to subtract from his MLB service time. He needs to spend 20 consecutive days in the minors between April and August in order to reduce his MLB service time by 1 year.

    As noted, Cingrani was really close but was called up on the 18th. That may have been enough, I am not sure. I obviously think the clock starts on opening day, but there may be some other things about what constitutes 20 days in the minors I am missing.

    Anyway, that is my best understanding of the rules. So from what I know, Cingrani is in danger of accruing 1 year MLB service time unless he is sent down for 20 days before September.

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  11. #172
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    Re: Cingrani for Cy Young/Rookie of the Year?

    I know the service time deal is an issue and that organizations have to be aware of it...but i also wonder the long term cost in keeping a player from earning something when he has proven he deserves those benefits. It causes ill will and it makes the organization look small and without their employees interests in mind (notice i did not say "best" interests....it's not the organizations job to take care of the employee).

    When an organization is perceived to go out of their way to keep a player down in the mirnors longer than he should be- i think that has long term effects that may out way the benefits. For example -a player entering his free agent year decides that even though he loves the city -he remembers the organization sticking it to him and decides their will be no home town discount. He also spreads the word that the organization goes out of the way to stick it to players.

    I fully understand the rights of the organization, but a negative perception is a big animal -and it takes years to overcome and you might have to pay more in the long run cause players won't even take a sniff at what you have to offer. Their is a gentleman down the road from the Reds that is still trying to change his stripes - it won't happen in his lifetime and i believe he's paid a high price for his and his families arrogance in the short and long run.

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  13. #173
    Member membengal's Avatar
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    Service time discussions make my eyes bleed.

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  15. #174
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by malcontent View Post
    Today Cingrani pitched with an intensity I've rarely seen in a pitcher.

    As if he knows that this is his shot now, and that he has no intention of letting it slip away. Kudos to Buckley and the scouting department.
    He's the pitching version of Joey Votto. Quiet intensity, goes about his business with little fanfare, dedicated to perfecting his craft.

    So maybe that's a little much, but if nothing else I like the personality types this team has on it. Bruce, Votto, Phillips, Frazier, Latos, Choo - all diverse but yet it seems to fit together very well. Cingrani is no exception. There's no denying what he's accomplished thus far, but I don't doubt there will be some bumps in the road.

    Long-term I like his upside a lot better thank Leake's, but I'm not ready to give up on him either, though the leash is noticeably shorter. Enjoy the ride Cingrani is on right now and we can figure out what to do when Cueto is healthy. These things tend to take care of themselves and if not then I think Walt & Co. have earned our trust to make the right decision.
    "It's still a long way to the top if we want to rock'n'roll, but at least they dumped the tuba player."
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  16. #175
    Winning is fun.
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    Re: Tony Cingrani Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Here is the logic most are missing. The Reds didn't think Cingrani was ready coming out of Spring Training.
    Did the Reds not think Cingrani was ready, or were the Reds not willing to tinker with a rotation that helped win 97 games last year? I read plenty of sentiment during the offseason and spring training that there was no reason to fix what wasn't broke. At times it was part of the explanation of not moving Chapman to the rotation.

    That said, for now I still agree with you that Cingrani goes down once Cueto comes back because the Reds will most likely need a sixth starter for one reason or another between now and the end of the season. But if Cueto is out for another month and Cingrani keep pitching at this pace, I don't see how the Reds take him out of the rotation.

  17. #176
    Member membengal's Avatar
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    At the very least, this will allow Cueto to fully get healthy without external pressures to rush him back.

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  19. #177
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani for Cy Young/Rookie of the Year?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    woy, I know you are good with the data sets, how many rookie pitchers have approached 28/4 k/bb in their first three starts?

    I can't imagine there are many names on a list like that who turned out to be terrible.
    Off the top of my head Fernando in 1981

  20. #178
    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: Cingrani for Cy Young/Rookie of the Year?

    Tony Cingrani will be immortalized on Mount Rushmore.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

  21. #179
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    Where has anyone said they don't want Cingrani in the rotation? I think what most are saying, including myself, is that it's been 3 starts. Yeah, 3 good starts, and it's encouraging what we've seen from this kid. But lets not put the cart before the horse here, and feel this organization has to be seriously thinking about making some sort of future decision about Cingrani on such a small window when there is really no need to at this point because the timetable on Cueto is uncertain.

    Cueto started soft tossing earlier this week, but I bet it's still gonna be late May at least before we MAY see him. And there is no need to rush him either with the way Cingrani has pitched. So that is good news. As fans lets relish in that because a majority of us were in the panic stage when Johnny went down.

    Meanwhile, Cingrani will get several more starts, lets see how the kid does, and we'll "cross that bridge when we get to it." But it's ridiculous, at this point, to hear fans talking, when Cueto returns, about sending Leake down (which can't be done without his permission due to service time), sending him to the BP (he's not BP material), or even trading him (his value ain't that high), at this stage of the game.

    I've been on this forum for 12 years, and it's not the first time fans have screamed about some young prospect tearing it up in AAA, wondering why this FO hasn't got them up here or whatever. And when they do, in the end, after awhile, they fall flat on their face. Numerous names/examples can be mentioned. Brandon Larson was the next Mike Schmidt.

    And No, I'm not saying that is what will happen with Cingrani. But only that it's too small of a window to be making some of the rash pronouncements that have been made.

    Let's exercise some cautious optimism here, while enjoying what we're seeing out of this kid.

    If he is this good he ain't going no where, and at some point he will be a staple in this rotation. And this is the last year of 35 yr old Arroyo's contract too.

    Until then... No Pressure.
    Problem is Leake soft tosses often on game days

    If the Reds need to stash an arm in AAA I bet they'd say that guy is probably using his right arm to brush his teeth this morning

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  23. #180
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    Re: Cingrani for Cy Young/Rookie of the Year?

    Is this Cingrani?
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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