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Thread: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

  1. #61
    Member Rantly's Avatar
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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    I know its just one at bat but after seeing Bruce hack at that ball in the dirt with runner on 3rd one out AGAIN!!, I just have feeling he is never going to be the player we all thought.

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  3. #62
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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Rantly View Post
    I know its just one at bat but after seeing Bruce hack at that ball in the dirt with runner on 3rd one out AGAIN!!, I just have feeling he is never going to be the player we all thought.
    That was a huge play in the game. Bruce still has some time to learn but I think the leash has to be getting short. Idk if he will be able to ever be counted on as a consistent primary run producer. He's still a solid piece. I think at the deadline the focus should be on a 4 hole bat so Bruce can take a secondary role in run production.

  4. #63
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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by HDBoy View Post
    It's now or never: the Reds need to shakeup this team with a blockbuster
    Using 2 wildcards this is how many wins needed for the playoffs the last 5 years

    2012 = 88
    2011 = 89
    2010 = 90
    2009 = 88
    2008 = 89

    Currently the Reds are on pace for 91 wins (90.558), and they are doing this with their Clean up hitter and Ace of the pitching staff on the DL.

    Ludwick's WAR last season was 2.1, lets assume he comes back for the 2nd half of the season that pushes the Reds win total to 92 wins

    Cueto's WAR last season was 5.8, lets assume he comes back for the 2nd half of the season that pushes the Reds win total to 95 wins

    Yes this team could be improved, but they are no where close to panic mode.

    Bruce leads the world in strikeouts only has 1 HR and is due 42 million over the next 4 years

    Leake is one of the worse starters in baseball, his stats last season vs all other qualified starters in the NL

    Out of 46 NL starters Leake ranked
    43rd in ERA
    37th in WHIP
    45th in OPS against
    46th in BAA

    Quote Originally Posted by HDBoy View Post
    trade for a more reliable power hitter/right fielder.
    To get a quality cleanup hitter you would have to give up Bruce. Leake, & most likely Hamilton (and maybe money to cover Bruce contract)

    But lets look at right fielders, Bruce has a career .804 OPS so I'm assume you want to improve on that. Currently these Right Fielders have a .805 OPS or better

    Michael Cuddyer
    Daniel Nava
    Torii Hunter
    Jose Bautista
    Carlos Beltran
    Nelson Cruz
    Gerardo Parra
    Hunter Pence

    What is a power hitter? 30 HR a season maybe, so I'll use 25 as my cutoff

    Michael Cuddyer has 25 or more HR once in 13 years so NOT A POWER HITTER
    Daniel Nava is 30 years old with 12 career HR so NOT A POWER HITTER
    Torii Hunter has not had 25 HR in 6 years so NO longer A POWER HITTER
    Jose Bautista, YEAH like they would trade him
    Carlos Beltran, YEAH like they would trade him
    Nelson Cruz 25 HR twice in 8 years Carrer .823 OPS, not much of an improvement but a little
    Gerardo Parra 6th season never more than 10 HR so NOT A POWER HITTER
    Hunter Pence has never had more than 25 HR but has had 25HR 3 times. He has a .813 OPS, not much of an improvement but a little

    So would you like to give up Bruce, Leake, & maybe Hamilton for Hunter Pence or Nelson Cruz? Both these guys are currently on winning teams, you would have to overwhelm them to get a trade done

  5. #64
    Member Old school 1983's Avatar
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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Krawhitham View Post
    Using 2 wildcards this is how many wins needed for the playoffs the last 5 years

    2012 = 88
    2011 = 89
    2010 = 90
    2009 = 88
    2008 = 89

    Currently the Reds are on pace for 91 wins (90.558), and they are doing this with their Clean up hitter and Ace of the pitching staff on the DL.

    Ludwick's WAR last season was 2.1, lets assume he comes back for the 2nd half of the season that pushes the Reds win total to 92 wins

    Cueto's WAR last season was 5.8, lets assume he comes back for the 2nd half of the season that pushes the Reds win total to 95 wins

    Yes this team could be improved, but they are no where close to panic mode.

    Bruce leads the world in strikeouts only has 1 HR and is due 42 million over the next 4 years

    Leake is one of the worse starters in baseball, his stats last season vs all other qualified starters in the NL

    Out of 46 NL starters Leake ranked
    43rd in ERA
    37th in WHIP
    45th in OPS against
    46th in BAA



    To get a quality cleanup hitter you would have to give up Bruce. Leake, & most likely Hamilton (and maybe money to cover Bruce contract)

    But lets look at right fielders, Bruce has a career .804 OPS so I'm assume you want to improve on that. Currently these Right Fielders have a .805 OPS or better

    Michael Cuddyer
    Daniel Nava
    Torii Hunter
    Jose Bautista
    Carlos Beltran
    Nelson Cruz
    Gerardo Parra
    Hunter Pence

    What is a power hitter? 30 HR a season maybe, so I'll use 25 as my cutoff

    Michael Cuddyer has 25 or more HR once in 13 years so NOT A POWER HITTER
    Daniel Nava is 30 years old with 12 career HR so NOT A POWER HITTER
    Torii Hunter has not had 25 HR in 6 years so NO longer A POWER HITTER
    Jose Bautista, YEAH like they would trade him
    Carlos Beltran, YEAH like they would trade him
    Nelson Cruz 25 HR twice in 8 years Carrer .823 OPS, not much of an improvement but a little
    Gerardo Parra 6th season never more than 10 HR so NOT A POWER HITTER
    Hunter Pence has never had more than 25 HR but has had 25HR 3 times. He has a .813 OPS, not much of an improvement but a little

    So would you like to give up Bruce, Leake, & maybe Hamilton for Hunter Pence or Nelson Cruz? Both these guys are currently on winning teams, you would have to overwhelm them to get a trade done
    Never assume a certain win total will get you in. And honestly if the reds goal is just to make it in, then they are missing the mark. Field the best team possible. It's a pretty large assumption that a leake Bruce and Hamilton would have to be moved for a cleanup hitter too. No one ever thought a leadoff hitter coujd be had wiyhout giving leake up. That being said, if managed properly this current set of players should keep the reds in it until the deadline when a move can be made. I'm not banking on a mid thirties outfielder who had a up year after three down ones a d is coming back from injury to carry us in the cleanup spot
    Last edited by Old school 1983; 05-08-2013 at 12:21 PM.

  6. #65
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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    It seems to me that the 2013 Reds are handling league average and second-tier teams well enough, but are not competing well against the best, top-level teams with great pitching.

    While promising with Cueto and Latos paired as aces, the Reds own starting rotation is severely compromised if one of these two goes down with an injury, as currently is the case. Together, the trio of Bailey, Arroyo and Leake are not consistent enough to take up the slack, and not dominant enough to compensate for the team's anemic hitting. Replacing Leake with Cingrani would improve the rotation, but this still would leave the Reds with just two aces, even if we all would be more hopeful.

    A team with such weak hitting support needs a stronger starting rotation. The key to improving this 2013 group begins and ends with adding another power pitcher to the rotation. Make Aroldis Chapman a starter. Trade Leake and another player (or two or three) for a stronger-hitting third baseman or outfielder. I'd also be bold and convert Cingrani to long relief or perhaps even to a closer for now -- paired with Broxton. Chapman simply is not as valuable as a closer if the Reds can't use him to hold leads because they are playing come-from-behind ball. So, he's being wasted in the bullpen with this collection of players.

    With a stronger starting rotation, opposing run production will be reduced, and the Reds won't constantly be playing under pressure to pull off those late-inning rallies. This in turn will affect momentum, and allow the team to string together more victories and win more series, which isn't happening under the current plan.

    So, the Reds need another power starting pitcher AND another power hitter.
    Last edited by HDBoy; 05-08-2013 at 06:03 PM.

  7. #66
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by HDBoy View Post
    It seems to me that the 2013 Reds are handling league average and second-tier teams well enough, but are not competing well against the best, top-level teams with great pitching.

    While promising with Cueto and Latos paired as aces, the Reds own starting rotation is severely compromised if one of these two goes down with an injury, as currently is the case. Together, the trio of Bailey, Arroyo and Leake are not consistent enough to take up the slack, and not dominant enough to compensate for the team's anemic hitting. Replacing Leake with Cingrani would improve the rotation, but this still would leave the Reds with just two aces, even if we all would be more hopeful.

    A team with such weak hitting support needs a stronger starting rotation. The key to improving this 2013 group begins and ends with adding another power pitcher to the rotation. Make Aroldis Chapman a starter. Trade Leake and another player (or two or three) for a stronger-hitting third baseman or outfielder. I'd also be bold and convert Cingrani to long relief or perhaps even to a closer for now -- paired with Broxton. Chapman simply is not as valuable as a closer if the Reds can't use him to hold leads because they are playing come-from-behind ball. So, he's being wasted in the bullpen with this collection of players.

    With a stronger starting rotation, opposing run production will be reduced, and the Reds won't constantly be playing under pressure to pull off those late-inning rallies. This in turn will affect momentum, and allow the team to string together more victories and win more series, which isn't happening under the current plan.

    So, the Reds need another power starting pitcher AND another power hitter.
    Unbelievable. 'shakes head' Ridiculous.

  8. #67
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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Unbelievable. 'shakes head' Ridiculous.
    Theories from one know-it-all armchair analyst are no more ridiculous than those from the next. You can't tell me that our pitching or hitting has met expectations. Yes, we've had injuries, but the players who haven't been injured aren't performing well and team chemistry is virtually non-existent. At this point, this team is generating little excitement.

    Certainly, the 2013 Reds are disappointing fans who managed to rebuild high expectations after the ignoble end to the 2012 season. To watch the team stumble through the early 2013 schedule is adding insult to injury. But with the lack of improvement, and in the absence of consistent wins, suffering fans are left with two options: give up, or exercise the God-given right to endlessly analyze a baseball team and speculate about how to make improvements. Such thinking and debate are a fundamental part of this national pastime, and it seems to me that no ideas are too silly in pointless debates like this.

    Also, I assure you that I hate this very discussion, even as I feel compelled to extend it. Two of my best friends are Giants fans and I've been a Reds' fan since attending my first games as a kid in the early 1960's. I prefer excitement and hope rather than the disappointment and despair.
    Last edited by HDBoy; 05-08-2013 at 09:16 PM.

  9. #68
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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    I think for the most part we are getting far too comfortable saying it is early and using pervious slow starts as comfort that things will come around. Last year we started slow but all of the pieces were there n this year they are not. I don't think it's time to panic but in think something needs to be done. Honestly I think it's time that dustys leash gets a lot shorter. You can pretty much question his day to day lineup decisions and personnel decisions. He's great at managing personalities but the game is played on the field as well and I think he isn't fielding the best lineup possible every game, isn't developing the right players, plays lineups that simply leave you shaking your head wondering if he is trying to lose, and often leaves his starters in too long. The cycle needs to end. Even with the injuries this team is far to talented to be hovering around .500.

    I know cubs fans, cards fans, and giants fans. They all tell me the same thing. He is a bad manager and is holding our team back. This tells me that it's just not us as reds fans being whiny about it.

    Furthermore, I think the lineup needs some shakeups. Give Bruce a break for a day. Get lutz in. Having Bruce take a day off has worked in the past. Hannahan and Frazier need to platoon. Mez needs to catch more. Robinson needs to play more and bat second. And they need to find a right handed bat off the bench nuts really putting the team in a bad spot. I think with some basic moves like that and using chapman in game on the line situations rather just in the ninth, what's the point of having two guys that can close? Would be an improvement.

  10. #69
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by HDBoy View Post
    Theories from one know-it-all armchair analyst are no more ridiculous than those from the next. You can't tell me that our pitching or hitting has met expectations. Yes, we've had injuries, but the players who haven't been injured aren't performing well and team chemistry is virtually non-existent. At this point, this team is generating little excitement.

    Certainly, the 2013 Reds are disappointing fans who managed to rebuild high expectations after the ignoble end to the 2012 season. To watch the team stumble through the early 2013 schedule is adding insult to injury. But with the lack of improvement, and in the absence of consistent wins, suffering fans are left with two options: give up, or exercise the God-given right to endlessly analyze a baseball team and speculate about how to make improvements. Such thinking and debate are a fundamental part of this national pastime, and it seems to me that no ideas are too silly in pointless debates like this.

    Also, I assure you that I hate this very discussion, even as I feel compelled to extend it. Two of my best friends are Giants fans and I've been a Reds' fan since attending my first games as a kid in the early 1960's. I prefer excitement and hope rather than the disappointment and despair.
    HDBoy you deserved a better answer than ridiculous on my part but I find it nigh on unbelievable you point your finger at the starters or pitching in general. NO staff gives up less than 2 runs every time out. Never in the entire history of the game. Pitching is why we are even close and that is with our #2 out (latos being #1). It would be near impossible to imlrove the starting rotation by trade without gutting the team of its best current players and its best prospe ts. You want an impossible standard is all I am saying when I sajd ridiculous. The Reds staff is much better than the Giants, btw. My biggest frustration is all the desire to trade any of our established pitching for rental type players.

    Some kind of change to the low obp high slugging offensive players I can get aboard. Too many in the same lineup I think. But thinking the path to improvement lies in the pitching? I strongly disagree. I also think a couple of our pitching prospects would be quitecapable of landing a Rios or Fowler if Walt goes the trade route. One hitter is not going to do it though...still need the other slumpers to turn it on.

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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    RedLegJake:

    I appreciate your thoughts. I believe our vaunted starting pitchers are 9-9 -- with Latos/Cueto at 4-0. At 35 games into the season, that's not a championship pace. I don't know what the starter's collective ERA is, but I'll bet it's not impressive either.

    Collectively, the offense is not "stepping up to the plate", so to speak, but the starting pitching does not seem to be keeping the offense in games either. Some say we need another slugger in the lineup, especially with Bruce and Frazier not excelling and both Hannigan and Ludwick out (Hanny hit for a pretty good average last year). Others says we need a slugger off the bench. Most everyone agrees that too many hot/cold hitters on the team need to find more consistency.

    I'm just saying we need dramatic change (including hitting), but better hitting alone won't get the job done. Besides offense and defense, pitching is essential to championships. The Reds offense isn't the only problem here.

    If we don't have the lead in the eighth or ninth inning, Chapman isn't getting in a lot of games to make a difference. Therefore his skills are being wasted in the bullpen. Given the mediocre state of the starting pitching, it's only logical that changes to the rotation be contemplated.

    Trade Leake. Or don't trade him, and convert him into a long innings eater and a pinch hitter and pinch runner. But get him out of this starting rotation.

  12. #71
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by HDBoy View Post
    RedLegJake:

    I appreciate your thoughts. I believe our vaunted starting pitchers are 9-9 -- with Latos/Cueto at 4-0. At 35 games into the season, that's not a championship pace. I don't know what the starter's collective ERA is, but I'll bet it's not impressive either.

    Collectively, the offense is not "stepping up to the plate", so to speak, but the starting pitching does not seem to be keeping the offense in games either. Some say we need another slugger in the lineup, especially with Bruce and Frazier not excelling and both Hannigan and Ludwick out (Hanny hit for a pretty good average last year). Others says we need a slugger off the bench. Most everyone agrees that too many hot/cold hitters on the team need to find more consistency.

    I'm just saying we need dramatic change (including hitting), but better hitting alone won't get the job done. Besides offense and defense, pitching is essential to championships. The Reds offense isn't the only problem here.

    If we don't have the lead in the eighth or ninth inning, Chapman isn't getting in a lot of games to make a difference. Therefore his skills are being wasted in the bullpen. Given the mediocre state of the starting pitching, it's only logical that changes to the rotation be contemplated.

    Trade Leake. Or don't trade him, and convert him into a long innings eater and a pinch hitter and pinch runner. But get him out of this starting rotation.
    Wins is the wrong way to evaluate pitching! You can basically suck and still get a win or vice versa. The starters collective era is just well below 4 and 2 nd to the Cards.

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  14. #72
    Member Old school 1983's Avatar
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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Wins is the wrong way to evaluate pitching! You can basically suck and still get a win or vice versa. The starters collective era is just well below 4 and 2 nd to the Cards.
    The only complaint I could even have about the pitching is in use of the bullpen. Other than that it's been good. The cards will not sustain their current pitching prowess either whereas I don't think any of the reds starters are overperforming. I agree with jake on the fact that this lineup has too many similar type hitters and there needs to be changes.

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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    I agree with jake on the fact that this lineup has too many similar type hitters and there needs to be changes.
    On this, I think we all agree.

  16. #74
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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    I agree. I want more high average/high OBP guys than the free swingers going for the fence every at-bat.

    I love Choo and Votto. Even BP has managed to lead the NL in rbi without hitting HR's. Nice to see.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    I agree. I want more high average/high OBP guys than the free swingers going for the fence every at-bat.

    I love Choo and Votto. Even BP has managed to lead the NL in rbi without hitting HR's. Nice to see.
    I totally agree too!


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