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Thread: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

  1. #76
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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Wins is the wrong way to evaluate pitching! You can basically suck and still get a win or vice versa. The starters collective era is just well below 4 and 2 nd to the Cards.
    Case in point, Saturday, Latos wasn't good Saturday, going 6.0 innings, giving up 9 H, 7 R (6 ER), walking 3, and striking out 4. He got the win because Burgos was brutal.

    Overall the pitching staff is #1 in NL in WHIP (1.20), #5 in ERA (3.58), #2 in K's, #3 in BAA (.242) and 5th fewest walks allowed. That's overall, not just the starting pitching. It would not be smart (IMO) to give up any ML pitching at this point.

    Offensively, the Reds are #7 in avg (.248), #1 in R (180), #2 in OBP (.332), #8 in SLG (.390), #8 in HR (37), #4 in 2B (63)...I'm not sure what to make of this offense, but the I'm not sure staying the course isn't the best action at this point.

    Anybody know where I can find the total number of runners left on base?

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  4. #77
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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    I also agree that counting wins is not the correct way to evaluate pitching, but it is one important point of comparison. And wins are THE most important way to evaluate a team.

    With only two potential aces in the starting rotation and three league average starters, this team just is too vulnerable if one of those two aces goes down, as happened in the 2012 playoffs. As for the Reds' hitting, clearly this is a team on which the bats suddenly can turn ice cold at any moment, and of course, this also happened during the 2012 playoffs.

    Well guess what: we still have the same, vulnerable staring rotation, though a different, but equally big hole in the starting lineup (given the fact that our versatile number two hitter had to be moved to bat cleanup due to Ludwick's injury). Choo/Philips/Votto/Ludwick-new guy/Bruce/Hannigan/Frazier/Cozart would be a far more formidable lineup.

    I don't think the Reds should go into the playoffs with just two ace starters and I don't think we can count on Ludwick returning to form this season, even if he does make it back onto the field. I hope I'm wrong, but should the Reds bet a critical, "all-in" season and a $109 million payroll (12th highest in MLB) on these vulnerabilities? I don't think so, especially when we appear to be just one or two players away from the goal.

    Again, I say trade Leake and a combination of veteran and promising minor league players for a cleanup hitter (maybe that elusive someone who can play third base or left field). Maybe we should hold onto Bruce. Maybe not. If Ludwick makes it back in true form, we have an even better bench and a team built for the playoffs, and not just the regular season.

    Move Chapman to the rotation and Cingrani up to the show. Wth just one or two pitches, maybe Cingrani's blazing fastball would be a good fit in the late-inning bullpen and I can see that the coaches really are pushing Hoover to see if he has the stuff to become a closer. I appreciate the fact that Leake finally may be pushing himself a little harder now that his job is on the line and he has competition for that number five spot, but he's just not the right hurler for this team at this point in time.

  5. #78
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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by HDBoy View Post

    Move Chapman to the rotation and Cingrani up to the show. Wth just one or two pitches, maybe Cingrani's blazing fastball would be a good fit in the late-inning bullpen and I can see that the coaches really are pushing Hoover to see if he has the stuff to become a closer. I appreciate the fact that Leake finally may be pushing himself a little harder now that his job is on the line and he has competition for that number five spot, but he's just not the right hurler for this team at this point in time.
    Does anyone think that the reds may be pushing Hoover to close in order to move chapman into the rotation mid season. Just a crazy thought.

    For the reds to acquire an impact four hitter they will have to deal pitching. It's our position of power in the majors or minors. Lets hope Walt can choose the correct pieces to move.

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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    A move isn't needed. That is, unless it is a major deal. The Reds are getting excellent production from left in their 3 headed platoon. They have Felix Perez in AAA too. Barnhart is ready if an emergencg arises. What I guess I'm saying is no deal involving our pitching is worth it unless its for an impact hitter like a Stanton. The Reds are well supplied with decent platoon players and fill in guys. Dusty playing Cozart in the 2 hole baffles me since the LF platoon as a group has a great OBP and could slot in that hole really well. I have no problem with BP at cleanup but get the OBP guys in the 2 hole Dusty!

    So either stand pat or go for a BIG splash but iffy players, old expensive guys...role players? No thanks...not for any of our arms.

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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    If the world ends tonight, it will be because God doesn't want to watch another Jay Bruce ab. I know I don't.

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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    A move isn't needed. That is, unless it is a major deal. The Reds are getting excellent production from left in their 3 headed platoon. They have Felix Perez in AAA too. Barnhart is ready if an emergencg arises. What I guess I'm saying is no deal involving our pitching is worth it unless its for an impact hitter like a Stanton. The Reds are well supplied with decent platoon players and fill in guys. Dusty playing Cozart in the 2 hole baffles me since the LF platoon as a group has a great OBP and could slot in that hole really well. I have no problem with BP at cleanup but get the OBP guys in the 2 hole Dusty!

    So either stand pat or go for a BIG splash but iffy players, old expensive guys...role players? No thanks...not for any of our arms.
    That is what I was saying. To make the big splash everyone was talking about. Stanton. I think if be willing to part with a lesser pitching piece for Headley. If the reds go for anyone below that level, I'd try to keep the big name pitching prospects out of it but in reality that will be hard to do since outside if billy Hamilton our best prospects are pitchers. But to get a decent two hole hitter I think all that might be required is to call the phillies up at deadline time and see if they would bite in ondrusek a guy they have had interest in last year and maybe a lotzkar for Michael Young. Bat him second move Frazier to left and the hole in the two spot is gone. In my opinion I think a move like that would only mask the bigger issue of not having a four hole hitter. Yes I know Phillips is doing an awesome job but he really doesn't scare anyone the way a Stanton or Headley would. I'd at least look into those options and if they cost too much then go with a two hole fix.

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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by miamiredskin View Post
    If the world ends tonight, it will be because God doesn't want to watch another Jay Bruce ab. I know I don't.
    Bruce is 26. He has improved his home run and RBI numbers every year in the bigs. He is an all star. He is arguably the best defensive right fielder in the game. His glove and arm save runs almost on a nightly basis. Bruce still has tons of room to improve and I think he will. Contrary to what most fans think, Bruce does get clutch hits. We need to realize that young 30 homer 99 RBI guys that play elite level defense and are still improving do not grow on trees and are not the type of guys that you trade. Especially one that wants to stay with the organization.

  10. #83
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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    I agree with those who opine that it is way too early to panic. Most teams don't even consider trades until after Memorial Day (at least).

    I also agree with those that state any trade for anyone is going to cost pitching.

    Relax, folks, the season isn't even a quarter old. Give it another month.
    We can share the women, we can share the wine.

  11. #84
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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofStLouis View Post
    I agree with those who opine that it is way too early to panic. Most teams don't even consider trades until after Memorial Day (at least).

    I also agree with those that state any trade for anyone is going to cost pitching.

    Relax, folks, the season isn't even a quarter old. Give it another month.
    I agree that to acquire anyone worth anything it'll take pitching no ifs ands or buts about it. I think we all realize too that a trade will realistically occur in June or July. We see a hole in the lineup and want it fixed.

  12. #85
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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    Bruce is 26. He has improved his home run and RBI numbers every year in the bigs. He is an all star. He is arguably the best defensive right fielder in the game. His glove and arm save runs almost on a nightly basis. Bruce still has tons of room to improve and I think he will. Contrary to what most fans think, Bruce does get clutch hits. We need to realize that young 30 homer 99 RBI guys that play elite level defense and are still improving do not grow on trees and are not the type of guys that you trade. Especially one that wants to stay with the organization.

    All I know is, with runners on 2nd and 3rd and 1 out, Bruce just popped out and struck out in the same ab. He re-defines futility on a regular basis. Accumulating stats for a few weeks every year may make you an all-star, but it doesn't make you a winner. And he hasn't changed one bit since he came up.

  13. #86
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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by miamiredskin View Post
    All I know is, with runners on 2nd and 3rd and 1 out, Bruce just popped out and struck out in the same ab. He re-defines futility on a regular basis. Accumulating stats for a few weeks every year may make you an all-star, but it doesn't make you a winner. And he hasn't changed one bit since he came up.
    I completely agree he needs to be more consistent but you just can't trade him for anyone and I think people seriously overlook what he brings on defense on a nightly basis and that will never slump. I think we have plenty of spots like third and left we could slot better players. People seem to turn a blind eye to the clutch hits he does get bc they are so focused on the times he doesnt. Bruce is the least of my worries.

  14. #87
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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    I wouldn't give up on Bruce, lotta season to go.
    We can share the women, we can share the wine.

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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofStLouis View Post
    I wouldn't give up on Bruce, lotta season to go.
    I don't want to give up in Bruce. There are four names that it'd listen to in a Bruce trade. Trout, Harper, price, and Stanton. Other than that pretty much forget trading him in my mind and I really don't think any if those guys are all too available with the exception of Stanton.

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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    It's a shame the Reds never traded those two bums for a real cleanup hitter. All of their problems would be solved.

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    Re: Trade time: Bruce and Leake for a cleanup hitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve4192 View Post
    It's a shame the Reds never traded those two bums for a real cleanup hitter. All of their problems would be solved.
    Yeah, neither Bruce or Leake have done anything this year.
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