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Thread: It's Billy time....

  1. #31
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    Re: It's Billy time....

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Fan View Post
    We are only a month into the season, why change anything? Were not the Angles and way under .500, in fact we are over .500. As for Hamilton you want to see bad numbers, bring him up now and he will be lucky to hit .200 and ever get on base. Speed is great, but not sitting on the Bench. Why mess with Frazier, why worry over less then 30 games played?

    Why trade for a player from SD you wouldn't have pass this season and give up a great pitcher? We have no idea if Cigirini is the real deal and we won't know that for at least another year if then. We are fine right now..
    Of course we are over 500. We have top notch pitching carrying us. Who would you bat second, that dusty would actually play and bat second? I'd all be for Robinson. I saw the angels slump coming from a mile away. Their pitching just isn't good enough.


    Why mess with Frazier? The guy can't consistently hit or even give tough at bats against good pitching and unlike Bruce his D is not stellar. He was cold to finish last year, and I really noticed holes in his swing last year. We already have enough free swingers out there so why hurt the defense when good pitching is in. If a team is throwing a high caliber pitcher lets play for defense with hannahan. His D will probably help save more runs than Frazier would produce in those situations. Lets let Frazier be right handed pop off the bench against relievers with a good fastball and let him start against lesser pitching he can clobber and bloat his numbers with.

    And Headley is signed through next year as well. I'd be crazy to trade a starter for a rental. But why do it? There is no promise choo will return next year. We need to go for it. If our pitching proves solid without cueto it may be a sign we can live without him. Look back on the reds past 4 winning seasons. What did they have in common? An impact cleanup guy. 99 Vaughn. 2000 bichette 2010 Gomes. 2012 ludwick. Why make a 225 million dollar investment in votto if he gets no lineup protection? Phillips doesn't scare any pitcher and Bruce and Frazier are way too inconsistent. Just look at the cards. They know who is in the heart of their lineup. Beltran Holliday and Craig. All solid disciplined hitters who can instantly hurt you. Even when they lost pujols they didn't mess around hoping someone would step up. They got a proven hitter in Beltran. The reds need to do the same. Build the lineup around disciplined hitters at its core. We have votto and Phillips can be. Get another and this lineup will take off and the reds will win with pitching and offense.
    Last edited by Old school 1983; 05-03-2013 at 02:13 PM.

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  3. #32
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    Re: It's Billy time....

    Maybe billy time was more of an eye catcher than a real good idea. Ill admit that. But you know what, by the end of this year he will be a factor on this team. And this team being fine depends on how you define fine. If making the postseason is what you want, then yes this team will probably be adequate. If you want to win, they need a cleanup hitter. Period. If not they need at least a legit two hole hitter. My solution covered both and made the defense better in the process. I know billy isn't ready, but when he gets hot in AAA we should bring him up and ride the hot hand. Even if we gave up bailey in a trade for say Headley it would only make the team better in the playoffs. Our starters games 1thru3 would be the same as last year. I think I'd be ok with cingrani in a game 4 unless it was an us getting swept situation. So we'd be going to war with the same pt gets and an even better lineup that could actually produce runs without the longball. I know losing homer or cueto would hurt, but it's not like the rest if the rotation is a bunch of bums. Our 5th starter that everyone wants to trade for anyone is good enough to easily be a three on most staffs if not more than that on some others. Sometimes you have to build a playoff winner and give quality to get it. It's all just garbage in my head now but I think a trade like that is very plausible and not a pipe dream and would actually help the team more in the short and long run than a trade of prospects for Stanton that constantly comes up here.

  4. #33
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    Re: It's Billy time....

    I don't think any major trades are going to shake out until the deadline, if then. They are monitoring Ryan Ludwick's progress. If Reds' management feels he won't be back or won't be effective when he comes back, I could see them pulling the trigger on something substantial. Until then it's wait-and-see time. One caveat. If they seem to be falling substantially out of contention, I could see a major move being made. I agree that Chase Headley would look very good in the middle of the Reds' lineup.
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  5. #34
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: It's Billy time....

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    I totally oppose bringing Billy up but you are right....let him get hot and lots of people will start pressing the Billy button. There is this...the guy has always struggled early after a promotion but gets it together and ends up solid. I'm not too concerned about his horrid AAA line yet.
    Yea I agree.
    I can even see the line of reasoning that the Reds might be a marginally better team with Hamilton right now.. I'm not 100% convinced, but it's possible.

    But man, this kid might be a star someday. Let's don't disrupt his development, especially when it's only a marginal at best improvement.
    The Reds made a mistake and called up Homer way too early. Had they been more patient with Homer, he might've "clicked' earlier.. Maybe not, but at least Homer would've been spared all the barbs he got from being thrown to the wolves too soon.

    Even if Hamilton ends up only becoming a middle-of-the-pack CF, it's another great success story for the Reds' farm system. A farm system needs to crank out the Cozarts, Frasiers, LeCures, and Heiseys along with the occasional star.
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    Re: It's Billy time....

    Quote Originally Posted by texasdave View Post
    I don't think any major trades are going to shake out until the deadline, if then. They are monitoring Ryan Ludwick's progress. If Reds' management feels he won't be back or won't be effective when he comes back, I could see them pulling the trigger on something substantial. Until then it's wait-and-see time. One caveat. If they seem to be falling substantially out of contention, I could see a major move being made. I agree that Chase Headley would look very good in the middle of the Reds' lineup.
    I was totally saying at the deadline. After we see how ludwick will be. And get a better read on cingrani. To do it now would be knee jerk and probably require a massive over pay

  7. #36
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    Re: It's Billy time....

    Quote Originally Posted by REDREAD View Post
    Yea I agree.
    I can even see the line of reasoning that the Reds might be a marginally better team with Hamilton right now.. I'm not 100% convinced, but it's possible.

    But man, this kid might be a star someday. Let's don't disrupt his development, especially when it's only a marginal at best improvement.
    The Reds made a mistake and called up Homer way too early. Had they been more patient with Homer, he might've "clicked' earlier.. Maybe not, but at least Homer would've been spared all the barbs he got from being thrown to the wolves too soon.

    Even if Hamilton ends up only becoming a middle-of-the-pack CF, it's another great success story for the Reds' farm system. A farm system needs to crank out the Cozarts, Frasiers, LeCures, and Heiseys along with the occasional star.
    I totally see where you are coming from and really I'd agree. I just wish baker would go with Robinson in the two hole and it'd be a non issue for me. I was thinking by bringing billy up it may force his hand

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    Re: It's Billy time....

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    Of course we are over 500. We have top notch pitching carrying us. Who would you bat second, that dusty would actually play and bat second? I'd all be for Robinson. I saw the angels slump coming from a mile away. Their pitching just isn't good enough.


    Why mess with Frazier? The guy can't consistently hit or even give tough at bats against good pitching and unlike Bruce his D is not stellar. He was cold to finish last year, and I really noticed holes in his swing last year. We already have enough free swingers out there so why hurt the defense when good pitching is in. If a team is throwing a high caliber pitcher lets play for defense with hannahan. His D will probably help save more runs than Frazier would produce in those situations. Lets let Frazier be right handed pop off the bench against relievers with a good fastball and let him start against lesser pitching he can clobber and bloat his numbers with.

    And Headley is signed through next year as well. I'd be crazy to trade a starter for a rental. But why do it? There is no promise choo will return next year. We need to go for it. If our pitching proves solid without cueto it may be a sign we can live without him. Look back on the reds past 4 winning seasons. What did they have in common? An impact cleanup guy. 99 Vaughn. 2000 bichette 2010 Gomes. 2012 ludwick. Why make a 225 million dollar investment in votto if he gets no lineup protection? Phillips doesn't scare any pitcher and Bruce and Frazier are way too inconsistent. Just look at the cards. They know who is in the heart of their lineup. Beltran Holliday and Craig. All solid disciplined hitters who can instantly hurt you. Even when they lost pujols they didn't mess around hoping someone would step up. They got a proven hitter in Beltran. The reds need to do the same. Build the lineup around disciplined hitters at its core. We have votto and Phillips can be. Get another and this lineup will take off and the reds will win with pitching and offense.
    So with not even a full season at third you are already to cut bait and let Frazier go....WOW

  9. #38
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    Re: It's Billy time....

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Fan View Post
    So with not even a full season at third you are already to cut bait and let Frazier go....WOW
    I wouldn't be cutting bait. I'd be putting him in a position like he was last year when he was an asset to the team. Use his versatility and power when needed. Lets not kid ourselves. The guy had meh minor league numbers. His D leaves more to be desired no matter how you spin it. He has contact issues versus anything that is above average pitching. Hannahan has a way better glove. Not just marginal, more plate discipline, and averages a higher obp. Lets all get off of the Frazier is the next big thing bandwagon. He's a very nice piece. Probably not an all star. Lets platoon he and hannahan at third and he and Paul/lutz in left. He's get plenty of time and his bat wouldn't be exposed to above average pitching. Until yesterday he was hitting like .088 on the road. It's probably .1something now. Yes I know it was better last year. At the same time everyone is pointing to the toughness if the pitching faced on the road this year. This proves my point. Against above average pitching he is lost. I know it's early but you have to do better than that. I don't get why guys get do up in arms when I question why hannahan doesn't get more time but say that hanigan needs to play over Mez. I think if Mez got half the chance as Frazier he'd be a far more valuable player than Frazier.
    Last edited by Old school 1983; 05-06-2013 at 06:27 PM.

  10. #39
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    Re: It's Billy time....

    Gentlemen, be patient.

    First of all, the Friars are making inroads to re-sign Headley. Second, the Red Legs (or anyone else) aren't going to get him unless they give up some serious prospects.

    I can't believe you folks are giving up on Frazier, it's a long season.

    San Diego wants pitching, think top prospects. If the trading deadline approaches, and a Headley re-up doesn't look probable, that's what the Padres will want.
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    Re: It's Billy time....

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofStLouis View Post
    Gentlemen, be patient.

    First of all, the Friars are making inroads to re-sign Headley. Second, the Red Legs (or anyone else) aren't going to get him unless they give up some serious prospects.

    I can't believe you folks are giving up on Frazier, it's a long season.

    San Diego wants pitching, think top prospects. If the trading deadline approaches, and a Headley re-up doesn't look probable, that's what the Padres will want.
    I know it's early. Way early. I know what I've seen from Todd in previous seasons too. He's production last year was spawned by him being cut and coming in with a chip on his shoulder. Later in the year he was so cold he was frozen. This year he is looking more like the guy who hit 232 in 2011 than the guy who hit in the 270s last year. His D isn't the greatest either. I hope he can pick it up but I have my doubts. I really don't care if you can hit it out if great American pinball machine against subpar pitching. I want guys that give good hard at bats against good pitching. And for Headley I'd start my offer at either cueto bailey or cingrani depending on many factors. Those are some good young pitchers not just AA or A ball garbage.
    Last edited by Old school 1983; 05-06-2013 at 07:10 PM.

  12. #41
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    Re: It's Billy time....

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    I know it's early. Way early. I know what I've seen from Todd in previous seasons too. He's production last year was spawned by him being cut and coming in with a chip on his shoulder. Later in the year he was so cold he was frozen. This year he is looking more like the guy who hit 232 in 2011 than the guy who hit in the 270s last year. His D isn't the greatest either. I hope he can pick it up but I have my doubts. I really don't care if you can hit it out if great American pinball machine against subpar pitching. I want guys that give good hard at bats against good pitching. And for Headley I'd start my offer at either cueto bailey or cingrani depending on many factors. Those are some good young pitchers not just AA or A ball garbage.
    Wow. I'm in huge disagreement with you about Frazier.

    Frazier is the epitome of an average minor leaguer who has become a better major leaguer. It's very rare to see that.

    I don't think he'll ever be more than a .250 hitter, but with the potential to hit 25 HR's. I also think, unlike Jay Bruce, Frazier will survive because the expectations are lower.

    There's a reason Todd has several of the longest HR's ever hit at GABP..........dude hits the ball hard nearly every time. But he also knows when to simply put it into play, hit to the right side to move over a runner, or hit a Sac fly to get the runner in. He's willing to do the little things unlike some guys. But his big swing does allow for more K's than usual.

    Completely disagree about his defense. Dude has made great strides and is better than average at 3B. And most people I talk to believe this and I think you're in the minority on his defense. He is much improved. And I was concerned about it coming into the season. I'm not anymore.

    And his improved defense is a sign of a hard worker. Which probably explains why he went from being an average minor leaguer to a major leaguer. He continues to improve every aspect of his game.
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    Re: It's Billy time....

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    Wow. I'm in huge disagreement with you about Frazier.

    Frazier is the epitome of an average minor leaguer who has become a better major leaguer. It's very rare to see that.

    I don't think he'll ever be more than a .250 hitter, but with the potential to hit 25 HR's. I also think, unlike Jay Bruce, Frazier will survive because the expectations are lower.

    There's a reason Todd has several of the longest HR's ever hit at GABP..........dude hits the ball hard nearly every time. But he also knows when to simply put it into play, hit to the right side to move over a runner, or hit a Sac fly to get the runner in. He's willing to do the little things unlike some guys. But his big swing does allow for more K's than usual.

    Completely disagree about his defense. Dude has made great strides and is better than average at 3B. And most people I talk to believe this and I think you're in the minority on his defense. He is much improved. And I was concerned about it coming into the season. I'm not anymore.

    And his improved defense is a sign of a hard worker. Which probably explains why he went from being an average minor leaguer to a major leaguer. He continues to improve every aspect of his game.

    The odd thing I find is that most fans I talk to off of this board see my point on Frazier. Maybe I'm stating it in the wrong way. I like Todd. I love his attitude and his hard work. No doubt about that. If the makeup of this team were different, I'd probably be all for him. If the team was made up of high contact guys who lacked power, he'd be a no brainer to be in just for the pop, but this team is made up of the complete opposite. I see cozart, Frazier and Bruce as the most serious feast or famine offenders.

    I know a lot of people dog Bruce. He frustrates me to no end too. But contrary to popular belief, he does get some clutch hits. And by what you say about Frazier being a 250 25 hr guy, Bruce is already that and then some. To top it off Bruce is a near elite caliber defender in right and saves runs nearly every game with his glove and arm.

    Cozart is a streaky hitter, but he by no means is counted on to be a primary run producer. His defense is near gold glove caliber. It'd be hard pressed to find a better guy than him.

    That leads me to Frazier. He is a LESSER version of Bruce. High K low contact with pop. If he maxes out his talent, he is what Bruce is right now with bruce having room to get much better. And that's not taking D into account. Frazier has put in work. No doubting that. But he makes the easy plays look average, the average plays look hard, and the hard plus look near impossible. He sails a lot of his throws too. I see votto pulled back across first a lot. It's going to get him ran over. Todd can work all day long, but he will never be the caliber of 3b that Bruce is in right or cozart is at short. You will never see Frazier make the number of run saving plays that Bruce or cozart do. And when he's in cold mode like right now he doesn't bring anything to the team aside from pop off the bench.

    I'm probably going to sound like a jerk about this but if the best thing you can say about a guy is that he works hard, then It is probablt the polite way of saying he leaves more to be desired in his actual performance. Lets look at votto and choo offensively. They work their tails off. But is that the best thing you can say about them offensively? No it isn't. Lets look at choo in center. We say he is a Tireless worker and always put forth effort, but we know that's the kindest thing we can say about him there and there is way more to be desired.

    I like Todd. He has a great attitude, works hard, and hits it hard when he died hit it. But there are better defensive options already on this team and when his bat is cold, he doesn't bring anything extra to the field. Even when his bat is not cold, he's way too susceptible to the K like various others I. The lineup who offer the run saving defense Todd doesn't.
    Last edited by Old school 1983; 05-08-2013 at 01:58 PM.

  15. #43
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    Re: It's Billy time....

    Every description I see on here in defense of Frazier focuses around hard work, lead ship, clubhouse guy, and intangibles. His skills always seem to be a secondary consideration. Sounds like a pretty close description of a bench/platoon type player to me.

  16. #44
    Where's my chair? REDREAD's Avatar
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    Re: It's Billy time....

    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    That leads me to Frazier. He is a LESSER version of Bruce. High K low contact with pop. If he maxes out his talent, he is what Bruce is right now with bruce having room to get much better. And that's not taking D into account. Frazier has put in work. No doubting that. But he makes the easy plays look average, the average plays look hard, and the hard plus look near impossible. He sails a lot of his throws too. I see votto pulled back across first a lot. It's going to get him ran over. Todd can work all day long, but he will never be the caliber of 3b that Bruce is in right or cozart is at short. You will never see Frazier make the number of run saving plays that Bruce or cozart do. And when he's in cold mode like right now he doesn't bring anything to the team aside from pop off the bench.
    .
    I hear what you're saying, but most clubs have a guy like Frasier or worse at the #6 slot. He's a complimentary player, not a star. Still, it's very valuable to have a guy like Todd. He helps the team win games over the course of the season.

    I agree that the Reds could use another high batting average/OBP guy. That would be great. The Ludwick injury really caused a ribble effect, even though the team has scored a lot of runs relative to everyone else in the league.
    If Ludwick is healthy, and Phillips is batting second, then Frasier and Cozart's lower OBP is more tolerable. We have a hole in LF now, plus Hannigan got off to a slow start so the offense just seems worse than it really is. But when you put it in perspective, many teams have the same problem. Not many high OBP guys to go around, especially at 3b and SS. At least Cozart and Frasier can supply good slugging for their positions, and IMO, they both play defense well. Obviously, Cozart is more gifted defensively, but Frasier is fine.
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    Re: It's Billy time....

    Again, I think we have a better or at least more polished version of Billy in Robinson right now. I'm not saying that Billy won't pass him, but I would put money on it that it won't be this year. As far as our 4 hole, right now we have the man who leads the NL in RBI . Seriously though just put Robinson in the 2 hole and get Cozart out of there.


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