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Thread: If the Reds win central...

  1. #16
    Member Beltway's Avatar
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    Re: If the Reds win central...

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidMemphis View Post
    I get what you are saying, but I am going by what is on paper and what should (and probably will) pan out. Not by numbers from a very small sample size of this season. Perfect example is the Angels. They are much better than their record (in my opinion of course). When you look at the teams we have faced (angels, nats, cards, only to name a few), our schedule is much easier down the road than it was in April. To take a sample size of what has happened thus far, I do not believe is an accurate way to dispill how 'good' a team is.
    So you're saying we should judge teams by how talented they "feel" and not by their actual performance?

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  3. #17
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    Re: If the Reds win central...

    Putting it nicely, I'm decidedly NOT a Cards fan. But you have to recognize they're the 2nd most successful team in baseball history counting world series titles. That has to do with legacy and ownership as much as anything.

    That said, past performance in no way guarantees future results. If the 2013 postseason works out with similar teams advancing/winning divisions, no way will the Nationals (who had the Cards by the jugular last year before collapsing) let the Cards beat them again. And, aside from that, I'm feeling very confident that if we do what we should do (repeat as division champs), we'll beat the Cards this time around. Have faith. We are a really good team all things considered. And no really good team wins all the time during a 162 game year.
    Reds & Nats, 2013 LCS. Take2 (9/13) Reds but no Nats

  4. #18
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    Re: If the Reds win central...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beltway View Post
    So you're saying we should judge teams by how talented they "feel" and not by their actual performance?
    No, not at all. What I'm saying is that 30 or so games is not enough of a sample size to judge how good or bad a team is in most cases. Obviously, teams like the astros, cubs, etc have their issues, but in the long haul - the cream rises to the top. Again, I would be VERY suprised if say, the angels, finished the season the way they've started it. It's a long long season - 30 games in doesn't tell me the whole story of a team being or not being a contender.

  5. #19
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    Re: If the Reds win central...

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidMemphis View Post
    No, not at all. What I'm saying is that 30 or so games is not enough of a sample size to judge how good or bad a team is in most cases. Obviously, teams like the astros, cubs, etc have their issues, but in the long haul - the cream rises to the top. Again, I would be VERY suprised if say, the angels, finished the season the way they've started it. It's a long long season - 30 games in doesn't tell me the whole story of a team being or not being a contender.
    Yes, the cream usually does rise to the top, but you're assuming you already know which teams are going to rise to the top. There are no guarantees. Maybe the Angels don't turn it around, maybe the 2012 Nats were a fluke, and so on. Those aren't out of the realm of possibility (see how quickly the Phillies declined). All we know is how these teams have played so far this season. Everything else is speculation.

  6. #20
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    Re: If the Reds win central...

    Correct! It is ALL speculation. That is why these forums are so cool, to discuss and debate! It is simply my opinion, and I am right!

    On another note, I know I'm stating the obvious, but, I knew losing Ludwick would hurt, but wow. It's completely changed the entire dynamic of our offense. Having Cozart in the two hole, etc. Granted, having JB strike out every 3rd at bat doesn't help either, but geez, would be nice to see what the numbers would be with him in there. Hopefully we'll get that chance after the break.

  7. #21
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    Re: If the Reds win central...

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidMemphis View Post
    Correct! It is ALL speculation. That is why these forums are so cool, to discuss and debate! It is simply my opinion, and I am right!

    On another note, I know I'm stating the obvious, but, I knew losing Ludwick would hurt, but wow. It's completely changed the entire dynamic of our offense. Having Cozart in the two hole, etc. Granted, having JB strike out every 3rd at bat doesn't help either, but geez, would be nice to see what the numbers would be with him in there. Hopefully we'll get that chance after the break.
    I hope. In new here but I've been preaching if the importance of a four hitter for the reds for years. I hate seeing anyone hurt but maybe it'll be a blessing in disguise and Walt can pick up someone to put behind votto for years to come

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    Re: If the Reds win central...

    Quote Originally Posted by DWS1125 View Post
    I think Cardinals have better scouting on the major league level than the Reds mostly, because they have an idea of how they want the team to be constructed...But the Reds have a better scouting in the amateur levels. That has been the difference.

    The Reds have have had a solid production from their minor leagues, but so have the Cardinals... and they currently have the #1 ranked minor league system in baseball.

    I mean, position player wise: Craig, Descalso, Carpenter, Kozma, Jay, Adams, and Molina were all drafted by the Cards. Freese was acquired in a trade as a minor leaguer, and didn't come to the bigs until several years later.

    Pitchers: Miller, Lynn, Garcia, and Rosenthal were draft picks. Wainwright was acquired as a minor leaguer.

    The Cardinals are hardly the franchise they were under Walt Jocketty, where he pieced together great teams with free agents and trades... and maybe one or two home grown guys.


    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    Like I said the cards could definitely learn a few things about building a staff from the reds. They rode their stud pitchers hard that year and while Dotel was at the end at one point he was nasty with the Astros. It may be luck but he had just enough left in the tank. And I really wanted the reds to sign berkman or Beltran. I think they could have taught the reds you g hitters tons about discipline and approach as well as contribute to the team
    You guys had an outstanding staff last year. And they look solid this year. But to demean the Cardinals ability to build a staff is silly. They're far and away the best staff in baseball right now... with four of the five being guys that have ascended from their minor leagues.

    If there's anything the Cardinals have done well since 2000, it's pitch... thanks to Dave Duncan and now Derek Lilliquest.

  9. #23
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    Re: If the Reds win central...

    Quote Originally Posted by CardsFanBob View Post
    The Reds have have had a solid production from their minor leagues, but so have the Cardinals... and they currently have the #1 ranked minor league system in baseball.

    I mean, position player wise: Craig, Descalso, Carpenter, Kozma, Jay, Adams, and Molina were all drafted by the Cards. Freese was acquired in a trade as a minor leaguer, and didn't come to the bigs until several years later.

    Pitchers: Miller, Lynn, Garcia, and Rosenthal were draft picks. Wainwright was acquired as a minor leaguer.

    The Cardinals are hardly the franchise they were under Walt Jocketty, where he pieced together great teams with free agents and trades... and maybe one or two home grown guys.




    You guys had an outstanding staff last year. And they look solid this year. But to demean the Cardinals ability to build a staff is silly. They're far and away the best staff in baseball right now... with four of the five being guys that have ascended from their minor leagues.

    If there's anything the Cardinals have done well since 2000, it's pitch... thanks to Dave Duncan and now Derek Lilliquest.
    I wasn't meaning to demean. The cards have some great young pitching talent but on the whole the reds staff is better and the bullpen as it sits right now is far superior. I'm not knocking the cards. Lynn looks great. Garcia gives the reds fits. Miller is a hot prospect, wainwright is great. It's no knock. I just believe the reds staff is better.

  10. #24
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    Re: If the Reds win central...

    Fair enough. Your guys were outstanding last year. I think the Birds have a chance to be better in 13. The beauty of baseball: We'll find out by this fall who was right.

  11. #25
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    Re: If the Reds win central...

    Quote Originally Posted by CardsFanBob View Post
    Fair enough. Your guys were outstanding last year. I think the Birds have a chance to be better in 13. The beauty of baseball: We'll find out by this fall who was right.
    Exactly! I'm no fan of the cards, but I can admit they are not a lucky group of scrap heap players that some reds fan believe you guys to be. You have a great lineup and great prospects. And as far as using productive players with solid track records in the middle of your lineup, it is something the reds could definitely take note of and learn from.

  12. #26
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    Re: If the Reds win central...

    I think if you guys get a legit clean-up hitter, you'll be EXTREMELY dangerous. Just need a bit more pop. And to be honest, I didn't think Ludwick was the answer.

    Don't get me wrong... I love Ludwick. He still has TONS of fans in St. Louis. But the dude is just too damn streaky. And he doesn't strike fear into anybody.

    I'm sure Walt has something up his sleeve... at least by trade deadline time.

  13. #27
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    Re: If the Reds win central...

    I would also add that the Reds just need to learn how to win on the big stage. They remind me a BUNCH of the Cardinals teams in early 2000's. Not necessarily in their make-up, per sea. But I do believe that it takes some time to learn how to win and close out series in the postseason. I"m sure, while heart breaking, the last two years have helped. But once they finally win that first one, again, I think it changes and matures that team. Just gotta get back in that post season dance, though.

  14. #28
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    Re: If the Reds win central...

    Quote Originally Posted by CardsFanBob View Post
    I think if you guys get a legit clean-up hitter, you'll be EXTREMELY dangerous. Just need a bit more pop. And to be honest, I didn't think Ludwick was the answer.

    Don't get me wrong... I love Ludwick. He still has TONS of fans in St. Louis. But the dude is just too damn streaky. And he doesn't strike fear into anybody.

    I'm sure Walt has something up his sleeve... at least by trade deadline time.
    Walt has here lately. I never saw ludwick as the answer. People really want Stanton, but I think he'd cost too much. My man would be Headley.

  15. #29
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    Re: If the Reds win central...

    Quote Originally Posted by CardsFanBob View Post
    I would also add that the Reds just need to learn how to win on the big stage. They remind me a BUNCH of the Cardinals teams in early 2000's. Not necessarily in their make-up, per sea. But I do believe that it takes some time to learn how to win and close out series in the postseason. I"m sure, while heart breaking, the last two years have helped. But once they finally win that first one, again, I think it changes and matures that team. Just gotta get back in that post season dance, though.
    I totally agree with you. On anther thread I think I compared it to the Bulls in the late 80s having to win against the pistons to learn how before they achieved true greatness.

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    Re: If the Reds win central...

    Reds Staff minus Leake replacing him with Cingrani...is a better staff than the cardinals in my opinion. The problem with the reds lineup is lack of speed and 4th hitter. Cozart is really scuffling also...I don't see where you can put him to excel in the lineup but in front of Votto and he's still struggling!! I think Cardinals lineup is better at what they do! Contact!!!


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