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Thread: Cardinals are luckiest team in baseball.

  1. #76
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals are luckiest team in baseball.

    I agree with the posters here about Walt. It seems he has employed two different strategies. He knew he had the finances to make the kind of deals he did in St. Louis. He has seemed to shift his strategy when becoming the GM in Cincinnati to a strategy where he knows money constraint will be a factor. Because of this, I would still place him in the top 5 GM's in baseball.

    All that said, I think Mozeliak has certainly earned his stripes, so to speak as GM. The Cardinals broadcast gave an interesting graphic in tonight's game as I was switching back and fourth between the hockey game. Since 2006, the Cardinals have either drafted or signed 32 MLB players, which is by far the most of any team in major league baseball. Part of that was Walt but a huge majority of that was due to Mozeliak. Either way, I think both Cincy and St. Louis are amazing in the GM department. In fact, I would put both of their GM's in the top 5 in baseball right now as it stands.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

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  3. #77
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals are luckiest team in baseball.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedlegJake View Post
    Stephenson is still younger and developing. He has all the talent of Martinez if he can stay healthy. Position wise the Cards system right now is poised where the Reds were a couple years before the influx of promotions and trades came. They'll be pushing vets ouf the door soon. Taveras is impressive but Bruce was no less so and has certainly turned out to be solid but not the next great superstar. I'll give the guy props when he completes a couple ML seasons with great numbers. Other than Hamilton abd Winker who is years away the Reds are position poor for star potential. I hope the deep pool of arm talent pans out because that is the Reds hope until a new classcan get going hopefully with a couple high ceiling hitters in it.
    For the record, Stephenson is actually a higher rated prospect than Martinez on Fangraphs, though not by much.

    But in terms of comparing the two systems, right now, the Cards' is much better than the Reds for one reason. Oscar Taveras. The Reds just don't have anyone in his class of prospect right now, and for me having that big potential All-Star trumps all else.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  4. #78
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Cardinals are luckiest team in baseball.

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    History tells us that this tale your are telling is false. The facts simply don't back this up at all. Jocketty had a great record of developing talent in St. Louis and has continued that success in Cincinnati. Compare his record to any other GM's record of developing talent, and Jocketty will fair favorably.
    No he didn't. Look at his drafts between 2000 and 2007. They were awful. I'm not interested in having this discussion again. If I am right the future will show it and if I am wrong the future will show it.

    Truth of the matter is Gregarious is gone and he may end up being an all-star this year. jocketty is leveraging the cincy farm at an alarming rate.

    Heed my warning is all I ask, don't simply dismiss it because this is a cards thread

  5. #79
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals are luckiest team in baseball.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    No he didn't. Look at his drafts between 2000 and 2007. They were awful. I'm not interested in having this discussion again. If I am right the future will show it and if I am wrong the future will show it.

    Truth of the matter is Gregarious is gone and he may end up being an all-star this year. jocketty is leveraging the cincy farm at an alarming rate.

    Heed my warning is all I ask, don't simply dismiss it because this is a cards thread
    They may be awful in terms of final results per what that drafted player did in the MLB level however in terms of getting talent for those prospects, I think Walt did well.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

    Mike Shannon

  6. #80
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals are luckiest team in baseball.

    Saluki...you're right and everyone else is wrong...that's what you come off as...its just your opinion and I respect that...as I respect Mike's....we just disagree which is what makes a board interesting. I see Walt as doing a very solid job respecting the farm system. Every prospect he has traded had a better or near equivalent so where would they play if they weren't moved? The glove diff between Didi and Zach is squat. Gregorious may be a bitbetter hitter but at seasons end I bet Cozart's overall line is very clise. Alonso couldn't displace Joey and he was flat out horrid in left. Grandal or Mes? Another close call imo and I'll take Latos for the difference. Boxberger? Stewart? Would you take back Sappelt and Wood to give Marshall up? Another close call Wood or Leake? Where does Sappelt fit? Sorry Walt has NOT sold out the farm...he has shrewdly filled holes with excess prospects building a strong pitching staff and decent lineup in the process. Hamilton will be up too. You are right about one thing. The future will prove who is right. And I feel real comfortable about it.

    Mike you are right about Mozeliak. I thought the Cards might fade when Walt left but they found a great GM to replace him.

  7. #81
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    Re: Cardinals are luckiest team in baseball.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    No he didn't. Look at his drafts between 2000 and 2007. They were awful. I'm not interested in having this discussion again. If I am right the future will show it and if I am wrong the future will show it.

    Truth of the matter is Gregarious is gone and he may end up being an all-star this year. jocketty is leveraging the cincy farm at an alarming rate.

    Heed my warning is all I ask, don't simply dismiss it because this is a cards thread
    Players drafted by the Cardinals between 2000-2007:

    Chris Narveson (traded for Larry Walker)
    Yadier Molina
    Dan Haren
    Joe Mather
    Skip Shumaker
    Blake Hawksworth (traded for Ryan Theriot)
    Kyle McClellan
    Daric Barton
    Brendan Ryan
    Anthony Reyes
    Jason Motte
    Colby Rasmus
    Tyler Green
    Mitchell Boggs
    Jaime Garcia
    Chris Perez
    Jon Jay
    Shane Robinson
    Allen Craig
    Luke Gregerson
    Pete Kozma
    Clayton Mortenson (part of Holliday trade)
    Daniel Delscalso

    So Jocketty drafted the current Cardinals catcher, probably the best in the game, their 1B, 2B, SS, CF, #2 starting pitcher and closer. Plus, 16 other major leaguers.

    For comparison sake, here is what the Rays, who many consider to be the best at drafting and developing players, drafted in that same time period:

    Rocco Baldelli
    James Shields
    Jonny Gomes
    Jason Hammel
    Chad Gaudin
    B.J. Upton
    Elijah Dukes
    Delmon Young
    John Jaso
    Jeff Neimann
    Reid Brignac
    Wade Davis
    Andy Sonnanstine
    Jeremy Hellickson
    Evan Longoria
    Alex Cobb
    Desmond Jennings
    David Price
    Matt Moore


    The last two years yielded a boatload of talent, and this might be better than the Cards in the same time period. However, when you factor in the fact that the Cardinals drafted between 15-30 in most of those drafts and the Rays drafted between 1-3 in most of those drafts, never drafting higher than 8, the Cardinals did pretty well.

    Your story simply doesn't match up with the facts.

    (Btw, I feel really dirty having to defend the Cardinals. Ewwwwww)
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

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    Re: Cardinals are luckiest team in baseball.

    I must say, though, from what I understand, Jocketty was stripped of draft decisions the last several years, per owner Bill DeWitt. He instead put Jeff Luhnow (now GM of the Astros) and Mozeliak in charge of those last couple of drafts, which have really made up most of the current team.

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  10. #83
    Salukifan2
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    Re: Cardinals are luckiest team in baseball.

    Its also widely known that jockerty lost his job in STL because he did not put as much emphasis on developing players in the minors as the club wanted him too.

  11. #84
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    Re: Cardinals are luckiest team in baseball.

    Quote Originally Posted by CardsFanBob View Post
    I must say, though, from what I understand, Jocketty was stripped of draft decisions the last several years, per owner Bill DeWitt. He instead put Jeff Luhnow (now GM of the Astros) and Mozeliak in charge of those last couple of drafts, which have really made up most of the current team.
    Little bit of info.

    GM's never make draft day decisions. Ever.

    They hire guys like Luhnow, and Buckley (Reds head of player development) who make all the decisions in draft day. Has been that way forever.

    Jim Bowden talks about one draft, when he wanted to draft Tim Costo, but the head of the draft wanted to pick Dan Wilson. Bowden said he picked Dan Wilson, because that's what he paid the draft guy for, to make that decision.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  12. #85
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals are luckiest team in baseball.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salukifan2 View Post
    Its also widely known that jockerty lost his job in STL because he did not put as much emphasis on developing players in the minors as the club wanted him too.
    And history tells us that they clearly were wrong to do so.

    Jocketty had a great track record of developing talent in Saint Louis, and continues to have one here in Cincinnati.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.

  13. #86
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals are luckiest team in baseball.

    Jocketty lost his job because the owner wanted the younger more stat oriented Moz. Nothing to do with player development. They cited "philosophical differences"

  14. #87
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals are luckiest team in baseball.

    DeWitt btw is another of those interlinks threaded through Cards-Reds history.

  15. #88
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals are luckiest team in baseball.

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Little bit of info.

    GM's never make draft day decisions. Ever.

    They hire guys like Luhnow, and Buckley (Reds head of player development) who make all the decisions in draft day. Has been that way forever.

    Jim Bowden talks about one draft, when he wanted to draft Tim Costo, but the head of the draft wanted to pick Dan Wilson. Bowden said he picked Dan Wilson, because that's what he paid the draft guy for, to make that decision.
    Luhnow though was in charge of draft decisions before the draft and Jocketty was almost taken completely out of the pre-draft decisions. It was the main reason why there was so much contention in the Cardinals front office.
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

    Mike Shannon

  16. #89
    Member Beltway's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals are luckiest team in baseball.

    Matt Harvey no longer qualifies as a rookie.

  17. #90
    Member MikeThierry's Avatar
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    Re: Cardinals are luckiest team in baseball.

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    And history tells us that they clearly were wrong to do so.

    Jocketty had a great track record of developing talent in Saint Louis, and continues to have one here in Cincinnati.
    Wrong in doing what? Releasing Walt? History would tell you that it wasnt a bad decision considering that the Cardinals won a WS after he left and they drafted the best farm system in baseball..
    “Our next home stand follows this road trip.”

    “I just want to tell everyone Happy Easter and Happy Hanukkah.” says on the day before Easter

    Mike Shannon


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