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Thread: Stanton, Headley, Fowler and the guys I'd give up for each

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    Stanton, Headley, Fowler and the guys I'd give up for each

    Mods feel free to combine this with other threads....

    Anyway I see all kinds of Stanton, Headley, Fowler trade ideas on here, so I decided to make a thread for all comers and give my opinions of each.

    Ill start with big league players I could see the reds partings ways with. To me it more or less comes down to is this player necessary or is he a nice piece to have and is more of a want than a need. As well as piece acquired in a deal.

    Mike Leake: 5th starter. Cingrani could take his place.

    Cingrani: top three reasons he could go. Latos, Cueto, and Bailey. Three ace level guys already. I'd be sure of rotation health before I traded him

    Todd Frazier: Averagish D. Low plate discipline and average contact skills. Great power. Could be replaced by Hannahan who has a better glove and possibly a chance at a higher obp. His power could be expendable if a 4 hitter is obtained.

    Devin Mesoraco: I like the guy, but dusty doesn't seem to. Still young and has definitely plus side at a premium position. Hanigan could catch.

    JJ Hoover: with Marshall broxton and chapman, Hoover is a nice piece but could be expendable in the right deal.

    Homer bailey: may or may not want to stay in Cincinnati. Could become less of a need if cingrani steps up. Could bring a haul.

    Johnny cueto: ace. No question. But has recent injuries. IMO has maxed out his talent and latos and bailey will surpass him in the next year or so.

    Jay Bruce: I wouldn't trade Bruce unless we know we have choo locked up long term or if the player we get in return is equal or superior to jay defensively or if we had already acquired a righty power bat and it was a move to get choo out of center.

    Target one Stanton: what would be a pragmatic approach to acquiring his massive power? I've seen every trade idea known to man for him. I think the best bet to go in acquiring him and not drain the farm would be a three way trade a la the choo trade where we give pieces and trade a guy to another team and maybe Miami gives them another piece and they give pieces to Miami too. I think if we started with cingrani and Mez/Frazier it'd get the marlins attention. Maybe flip Frazier/Mez Hoover or prospects to another team and see what they'd throw in towards the fish or offer those some combo of those guys and minor leaguers, probably Bham. But in reality if we didnt want to drain the minors any deal for Stanton would have to start at cingrani in my mind. When the marlins firesale they generally want pitching in return. So for Stanton some sort of three way deal or drain the minors and pray we can rebuild it. I just see him costing way too much and destroying the minor league pipeline that we've built for the past decade.

    Chase Headley: my favorite target of the group. Good obp guy. Great D and switch hitter. In a perfect world I'd offer cueto straight up. Or a Frazier leake combo. But in reality neither deal would probably fly. So lets look at it two ways. First off to trade Homer or not to? If you go the homer route I'd offer straight up since they have similar contract lengths and each would be going to a more productive stadium for their given skillsets, theyd be likely to resign. So I think straight up or with a decent minor league sweetener homer could get him. So if you don't want to deal homer, you'd have to go cingrani, Frazier, maybe even Hoover and a decent minor league sweetener in my mind. Either way you're going to have to give up a starter you'd rather not want to, but then again you have to give to receive. I don't think the price would be as high as Headley as on Stanton.

    Dexter Fowler: I don't think I'd go after fowler unless a right handed power bat is acquired first, or someone steps up on the team to that spot. But if one of those occurs. Offer Bruce and a Cisco, Romano, Garret or maybe corcino (pick one) level pitching prospect and I think the Rockies may go for it. Shift choo to right. I'd not trade Bruce unless I knew choo was signed long term or if a power righty bat was signed first to offset the loss in the player we were getting back played great D and got choo out of center.

    On Bham: I'd try to be reluctant in trading him. He has sooo much speed. Choo is poor in center and if he steps up in AAA after a bad start he'd be a great In house option to shift choo to a corner. IMO, while I'd love to have Stanton, he'd cost too much and would handicap the outfield D.

    Ok just for fun: lets go video game crazy and acquire all three.

    Trade one: Homer and Frazier to SD for Headley. Team is solid after trade.

    Trade two: Bruce and corcino to Colorado for Fowler. Choo to right fowler to center. Team is great after trade. Bordering unfair.

    Trade Three: we drain the minor league ship minus cingrani for Stanton.

    Hamilton, Stephenson, Travieso, Hrod, Lutz, you name em they go.

    At that point the series may just be an after thought.
    Last edited by Old school 1983; 05-06-2013 at 06:07 PM.

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    Re: Stanton, Headley, Fowler and the guys I'd give up for each

    I don't know if the Reds would have the pieces to get a Stanton trade done. Yeah a 3 way trade would help in that regard, but three ways are insanely difficult to pull off.

    The three best farm systems in baseball I'd say right now belong to St.Louis(ugh), Texas, and Seattle. I figure he's going to one of those teams(hopefully not St.Louis).

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    Re: Stanton, Headley, Fowler and the guys I'd give up for each

    Quote Originally Posted by Goose1701 View Post
    I don't know if the Reds would have the pieces to get a Stanton trade done. Yeah a 3 way trade would help in that regard, but three ways are insanely difficult to pull off.

    The three best farm systems in baseball I'd say right now belong to St.Louis(ugh), Texas, and Seattle. I figure he's going to one of those teams(hopefully not St.Louis).
    That was kind of my point. In order to get him we'd have to give up young major league talent, which we probably won't, or completely bust the farm system that we have worked so hard to build. I'd rather continue the pipeline of players from the minors that we have worked so hard to build than spend it all on Stanton, when there are pieces out there that would cost you, but not break you.

    I think Headley would be a good target. No offense to Todd but Headley is just simply better. He'd fit nicely into the four spot, would allow for a ludwick comeback or billy breakout, would put Phillips back to the two spot and would hit for power while protecting votto. Idk what the price would be on him. If the deal started with cueto or homer which probably won't happen then I'd see other teams being hard pressed to match and still be able to field a good staff. I know cingrani is the Flavor of the month but to acquire a truly elite level bat like Headley or Stanton we'd have to start there. Giving up chapman is assinine. So is giving up billy unless there's a deal for a real center fielder in the works with a choo reup to boot. So to get Headley I think cingrani could get talks started. After that we'd probably have to put in a younger major league player. I'd go Frazier. Headley takes his spot anyway. I'd use Arredondo ondrusek and yes Hoover as sweetners. They'll probably want Hoover, and yes I'd pay that. After that we'd be talking prospects. I wouldn't go Hamilton on Headley period. I'd like to go with a Cisco Romano maybe Garrett level prospect. I think that'd get the deal done. Cingrani. Frazier Hoover. And prob two of Cisco/Romano/Garrett. I could even see throwing in a lamarre or soto too.
    Last edited by Old school 1983; 05-07-2013 at 10:14 AM.

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    Member jhu1321's Avatar
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    Re: Stanton, Headley, Fowler and the guys I'd give up for each

    Please make it stop.

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    CySeymour (05-07-2013)

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    Re: Stanton, Headley, Fowler and the guys I'd give up for each

    Quote Originally Posted by jhu1321 View Post
    Please make it stop.
    The Stanton talk? Yeah. It'd be a huge overpay and a system draining trade. We could probably not match the rangers if they went profar or the cards taveras in a deal for him.
    Last edited by Old school 1983; 05-07-2013 at 02:53 PM.

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    Re: Stanton, Headley, Fowler and the guys I'd give up for each

    One factor I didn't consider in the Stanton trade senerio is Ricky Nolasco. Miami would love to dump his salary, and if he could come back to Cincinnati as pitching depth I could see a trade becoming somewhat realistic.

    Maybe

    To Miami:
    Leake
    Cingrani
    Lutz or Frazier
    Heisey
    Travieso
    Romano/Cisco

    To reds:
    Stanton
    Nolasco
    Ruggiano

    It's solve pitching depth issues brought up by the trade, get us Stanton and a desperately needed righty bench bat in ruggiano. He'd also be a good insurance policy if the injury bug bit Stanton.

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    Re: Stanton, Headley, Fowler and the guys I'd give up for each

    Quote Originally Posted by Goose1701 View Post
    I don't know if the Reds would have the pieces to get a Stanton trade done. Yeah a 3 way trade would help in that regard, but three ways are insanely difficult to pull off.

    The three best farm systems in baseball I'd say right now belong to St.Louis(ugh), Texas, and Seattle. I figure he's going to one of those teams(hopefully not St.Louis).
    I think Texas is the most likely destination for Stanton, given that they're probably looking to replace Hamilton's bat. With Taveras in their system and Holliday in one corner OF spot, I seriously doubt St. Louis makes a move for him. Texas has a surplus at SS. Profar and a couple other decent/good minor league prospects for Stanton seems like a possibility to me.
    Last edited by Beltway; 05-09-2013 at 04:18 PM.

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    Re: Stanton, Headley, Fowler and the guys I'd give up for each

    Quote Originally Posted by Beltway View Post
    I think Texas is the most likely destination for Stanton, given that they're probably looking to replace Hamilton's bat. With Taveras in their system and Holliday in one corner OF spot, I seriously doubt St. Louis makes a move for him. Texas has a surplus at SS. Profar and a couple other decent/good minor league prospects for Stanton seems like a possibility to me.
    I could totally see that. The only way I can see the reds in play is if its a three way deal, or the reds take on nolascos salary which might not be a bad thing because we could use the depth. I'm sure that trade would require good pitching to go.

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    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: Stanton, Headley, Fowler and the guys I'd give up for each

    The Ludwick contract really puts a kink in things. I didn't really like it but understood he was kind of the only option they could sign to play LF.

    You really can't trade for an everyday LFer and continue to pay Ludwick.

    Reds farm system is strange in that they went from being a pitching-poor system for last gazillion years, to an organization focused on pitching, while not producing many more hitters since Votto, Bruce, etc.

    I have no interest in Headley. He can stay in Blazing Saddles.

    I think Stanton really solidifies the cleanup spot, and would make Dusty happy with his lefty, righty, lefty thing he's got going on.

    I'm really lost on what is up with Bruce's downfall. A real headscratcher. Throw out the stats..........he looks really lost at the plate........to the point he looks like he's overthinking everything.

    And even Votto doesn't look like Votto, even though his stats say otherwise. Watch him at the plate.........he's still not in sync. Which is kind of scary thinking about if his numbers are good now and he's not in sync.......what will his numbers be like when he finally feels comfortable? I really don't question Joey. One of the few.

    BP is quietly having a good season. He's the new Tony Perez.........Mr. Clutch.

    I hate Cozart batting second. He just doesn't hit line drives. Ground balls or pop ups seem to be his forte'.

    As much as I ragged on Mesoraco, I was hoping he'd prove me wrong and really step it up offensively. And I remain disappointed in him.

    If there's a silver lining, it's that this team is 18-15, 3 games over .500, and they don't look like they're in sync at all with eachother, aside from a few.

    Frazier is Frazier to me. He's probably what Bruce is without the high expectations. A .250 hitter who might hit 25 HR's. Todd seems to be a little more clutch to me. But maybe I just see his good hits though. Hmmm.

    If this team could keep Frazier, Cozart, and Mez in the 6, 7, and 8 holes.........and then find either a cleanup hitter, which would move BP back to the 2-hole........or find a 2-hole hitter with some bat skills and high OBP.........I'd be fine keeping BP in the 4-hole.

    I mentioned Denorfia a while back and that thread became a negative nelly. High OBP with decent bat skills. Would definitely be a lot cheaper than a Stanton. Bat him 2nd until Ludwick comes back to be the cleanup hitter. If he doesn't make it back, you keep things the same......Choo, Denorfia, Votto, BP, Bruce.

    My dream scenario would be:
    1. Sign Choo to an extension. Move him to RF, his natural position.
    2. Trade Chapman, Corcino, Yorman to the Fish for Stanton. Stick him at cleanup and in LF. He may not be now, but the last time I looked, Stanton had the highest OBP on the Fish.
    3. Trade Bruce, Leake, Lutz, to the Rockies for Fowler. Fowler is a switch hitter, only 27. Stick him in CF and bat him 2nd or 5th. Who knows. But he has a high career OBP and has speed. And he is showing some power this season with 7 HR's already.

    And with Choo signed, if you have to include Billy in any of these trade scenarios, I'd do it.

    Some salary relief with Arroyo ($12M) and Bruce ($12M) off the books next season.

    RF Choo (LH) - high OBP
    2B Phillips (RH)
    1B Votto (LH) - high OBP
    LF Stanton (RH) - good OBP
    CF Fowler (SH) - high OBP
    3B Frazier (RH) - still cheap
    SS Cozart (RH) - still cheap
    C Mesoraco (RH) - still cheap

    I'd consider flip flopping Fowler to the 2-hole and BP to the 5-hole. I'd even consider keeping BP in the 4-hole and batting Stanton 5th. Whatever works best. But get those high OBP guys at the top of the lineup.

    Cingrani moves into the 5th starter role. Cross your fingers he can pull it off. Still have depth at triple A with Galarraga, Reynolds, Villareal, and Sharky Rogers.

    Hoover moves into the Closer role. Broxton can share duties too.

    This team has got to stop wasting great starting pitching, and score some runs.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

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    Re: Stanton, Headley, Fowler and the guys I'd give up for each

    Quote Originally Posted by Vottomatic View Post
    The Ludwick contract really puts a kink in things. I didn't really like it but understood he was kind of the only option they could sign to play LF.

    You really can't trade for an everyday LFer and continue to pay Ludwick.

    Reds farm system is strange in that they went from being a pitching-poor system for last gazillion years, to an organization focused on pitching, while not producing many more hitters since Votto, Bruce, etc.

    I have no interest in Headley. He can stay in Blazing Saddles.

    I think Stanton really solidifies the cleanup spot, and would make Dusty happy with his lefty, righty, lefty thing he's got going on.

    I'm really lost on what is up with Bruce's downfall. A real headscratcher. Throw out the stats..........he looks really lost at the plate........to the point he looks like he's overthinking everything.

    And even Votto doesn't look like Votto, even though his stats say otherwise. Watch him at the plate.........he's still not in sync. Which is kind of scary thinking about if his numbers are good now and he's not in sync.......what will his numbers be like when he finally feels comfortable? I really don't question Joey. One of the few.

    BP is quietly having a good season. He's the new Tony Perez.........Mr. Clutch.

    I hate Cozart batting second. He just doesn't hit line drives. Ground balls or pop ups seem to be his forte'.

    As much as I ragged on Mesoraco, I was hoping he'd prove me wrong and really step it up offensively. And I remain disappointed in him.

    If there's a silver lining, it's that this team is 18-15, 3 games over .500, and they don't look like they're in sync at all with eachother, aside from a few.

    Frazier is Frazier to me. He's probably what Bruce is without the high expectations. A .250 hitter who might hit 25 HR's. Todd seems to be a little more clutch to me. But maybe I just see his good hits though. Hmmm.

    If this team could keep Frazier, Cozart, and Mez in the 6, 7, and 8 holes.........and then find either a cleanup hitter, which would move BP back to the 2-hole........or find a 2-hole hitter with some bat skills and high OBP.........I'd be fine keeping BP in the 4-hole.

    I mentioned Denorfia a while back and that thread became a negative nelly. High OBP with decent bat skills. Would definitely be a lot cheaper than a Stanton. Bat him 2nd until Ludwick comes back to be the cleanup hitter. If he doesn't make it back, you keep things the same......Choo, Denorfia, Votto, BP, Bruce.

    My dream scenario would be:
    1. Sign Choo to an extension. Move him to RF, his natural position.
    2. Trade Chapman, Corcino, Yorman to the Fish for Stanton. Stick him at cleanup and in LF. He may not be now, but the last time I looked, Stanton had the highest OBP on the Fish.
    3. Trade Bruce, Leake, Lutz, to the Rockies for Fowler. Fowler is a switch hitter, only 27. Stick him in CF and bat him 2nd or 5th. Who knows. But he has a high career OBP and has speed. And he is showing some power this season with 7 HR's already.

    And with Choo signed, if you have to include Billy in any of these trade scenarios, I'd do it.

    Some salary relief with Arroyo ($12M) and Bruce ($12M) off the books next season.

    RF Choo (LH) - high OBP
    2B Phillips (RH)
    1B Votto (LH) - high OBP
    LF Stanton (RH) - good OBP
    CF Fowler (SH) - high OBP
    3B Frazier (RH) - still cheap
    SS Cozart (RH) - still cheap
    C Mesoraco (RH) - still cheap

    I'd consider flip flopping Fowler to the 2-hole and BP to the 5-hole. I'd even consider keeping BP in the 4-hole and batting Stanton 5th. Whatever works best. But get those high OBP guys at the top of the lineup.

    Cingrani moves into the 5th starter role. Cross your fingers he can pull it off. Still have depth at triple A with Galarraga, Reynolds, Villareal, and Sharky Rogers.

    Hoover moves into the Closer role. Broxton can share duties too.

    This team has got to stop wasting great starting pitching, and score some runs.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not anti Stanton by any means. I just don't think it's a realistic deal. There are other farm systems way more stocked than ours, and all we would do if we got into a bidding war was blow our system out of prospects. I know getting fowler wound be great, I love the guy, but I'd error on the side of caution and not use billy in a trade before i had fowler. I love the thought, but both of those trades hinge on each other. If we could only acquire fowler then we have no cleanup hitter. If we only acquire Stanton then we have no true center fielder anywhere in the system honestly for this year or the future.

    And really that's why I see Headley as the best option. He'd cost you but not break you. He's not a rental. He'd improve the team D at third And still leave the option open for a ludwick return or improved D in center with a billy breakout in the minors. I know Stanton has way more power and someone compared him to wilt playing on an 8 foot hoop if he was in GABP. But remember. Wilt was the best player, but the celtics won. Team is the key. Don't be afraid to trade guys, but at the same time don't give away too much. We saw how bad the pen was hurting with Marshall gone imagine with chapman out, plus we'd lose the ability to maybe start him next year. Closers are not over rated. The save stat is. It's just not about save numbers it's about psychological effect and the setup of the bullpen behind him in the earlier innings.

    Your assessment of the players seems pretty good. I know Frazier does good things. I'm not completely down on him. I just don't think he's as good as people believe. People dog Bruce so much for his Ks they fail to see he gets clutch hits too. Choosing between the two similar guys I'd go Bruce because of the age his D and his potential is still high and he has show. He can produce.

    With Mez I think he's showing a better approach this year. I do notice on the outside pitch he is dipping that back shoulder like he did on everything last year. I think he just needs consistent time. I don't get why he is t getting it with corky there
    Last edited by Old school 1983; 05-07-2013 at 10:43 AM.

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    Re: Stanton, Headley, Fowler and the guys I'd give up for each

    I think stanton is a more of a fantasy trade than anything. Honestly, at this point, I think they all are.

    but thinking about it, how much would stanton help this team? The guy is a great player and all, but his defense is terrible, he is injury prone, and he strikes out A LOT. so with cozart, bruce and stanton the strikeouts would pile up and the Defense in left and center wouldnt be the greatest.

    I would be extremely surprised if the reds go after anyone to be honest. Actually im just going to go out on a limb and call it now. The reds will not make any big name trades this year UNLESS they are so far out of the division race and become sellers, which i dont see happening

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    Re: Stanton, Headley, Fowler and the guys I'd give up for each

    Quote Originally Posted by coachpipe View Post
    I think stanton is a more of a fantasy trade than anything. Honestly, at this point, I think they all are.

    but thinking about it, how much would stanton help this team? The guy is a great player and all, but his defense is terrible, he is injury prone, and he strikes out A LOT. so with cozart, bruce and stanton the strikeouts would pile up and the Defense in left and center wouldnt be the greatest.

    I would be extremely surprised if the reds go after anyone to be honest. Actually im just going to go out on a limb and call it now. The reds will not make any big name trades this year UNLESS they are so far out of the division race and become sellers, which i dont see happening
    That's part of the reason I see Headley helping more. He brings more than a bat and the price tag would be lower. The reds really don't have a big recent history of huge moves at the deadline, so I see where you are coming from. Walt dies though. It will be interesting. I'm not quite ready to call it yet. But if we look back at the past two World Series champs, they both made moves at the deadline to address weaknesses. I think the reds need to do the same.

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    I don't want to grow up Red Raindog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhu1321 View Post
    Please make it stop.
    I like to fantasize about winning Powerball.

    This is the baseball version IMO
    The older I get - the better I was

    and yes - I hate the Cardinals (Reds fan since 1958)

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    Re: Stanton, Headley, Fowler and the guys I'd give up for each

    Yes it is. It makes it fun. We know its probably not going to happen but it's cool to sit back and dream.

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    Winning the Human Race TheBigLebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old school 1983 View Post
    That's part of the reason I see Headley helping more. He brings more than a bat and the price tag would be lower. The reds really don't have a big recent history of huge moves at the deadline, so I see where you are coming from. Walt dies though. It will be interesting. I'm not quite ready to call it yet. But if we look back at the past two World Series champs, they both made moves at the deadline to address weaknesses. I think the reds need to do the same.
    Walt dies???
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