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Thread: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

  1. #16
    Et tu, Brutus? Brutus's Avatar
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I just don't believe that some player knows some magic secret that the coaches and manager don't already know and aren't talking to the player who needs help with already.

    On what plays is a player relying on someone else to do their job?
    Doug, do you know why businesses, corporations and even some professional sports teams hire psychologists to administer personality tests?

    Because research has found that certain people and certain personalities mesh better in the workplace with one another, and by extension, more production is yielded by finding that balance.

    Experience, personality, leadership, these are tangible traits which might not increase the talent level, but they do maximize the ability to perform at said level. It's not that they make someone hit the ball harder, field it more cleanly or run faster... it's that these people are conducive to a better environment where players would be more engaged and likelier to play to their potential on a daily basis.
    "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Those plays are almost automatic. 2-4 out of 100 don't work out for most Major Leaguers.
    Your question was "On what plays is a player relying on someone else to do their job?"

    My answer is: all of them.Whether they are "almost automatic" or not. You are relying on the other person to be doing their job as well as yourself.

  5. #18
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by NebraskaRed View Post
    Your question was "On what plays is a player relying on someone else to do their job?"

    My answer is: all of them.Whether they are "almost automatic" or not. You are relying on the other person to be doing their job as well as yourself.
    If you throw the ball where you are supposed to, a high school kid can finish the play.

  6. #19
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Doug, do you know why businesses, corporations and even some professional sports teams hire psychologists to administer personality tests?

    Because research has found that certain people and certain personalities mesh better in the workplace with one another, and by extension, more production is yielded by finding that balance.
    .
    I always assumed the personality tests were done so that some folks in middle management and HR could justify their positions.


    Not really offpoint but maybe to the side of the point: why is it when HS coaches talk about their teams they talk about Senior leadership but College coaches speak of inexperienced Freshman? After HS graduation do all the leadership qualities dissolve for the next two or three years?

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  8. #20
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I am all for adding good players. But that is because they are good. Not because of some magic they may work with other players and change their output, because I don't believe that is going to happen. But to add good players because they can perform better than someone they are replacing, let's do that.
    Joey Votto gave Scott Hatteburg a ton of credit for teaching him how to become a professional. You take a 25 year old, throw him onto a major league club that is traveling every 7 days, they are making more money than they ever dreamed of, and have to adapt to a level of failure they have never experienced. A little veteran experience goes along way. Baseball isn't played by a bunch of numbers rather a bunch of human beings.

    Don't discount leadership, because once you do your destined to fail.

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  10. #21
    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Joey Votto gave Scott Hatteburg a ton of credit for teaching him how to become a professional. You take a 25 year old, throw him onto a major league club that is traveling every 7 days, they are making more money than they ever dreamed of, and have to adapt to a level of failure they have never experienced. A little veteran experience goes along way. Baseball isn't played by a bunch of numbers rather a bunch of human beings.

    Don't discount leadership, because once you do your destined to fail.
    I have little doubt Joey Votto would have figured out how to be a professional with or without Scott Hatteburg.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

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  12. #22
    Member klw's Avatar
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Joey Votto gave Scott Hatteburg a ton of credit for teaching him how to become a professional. You take a 25 year old, throw him onto a major league club that is traveling every 7 days, they are making more money than they ever dreamed of, and have to adapt to a level of failure they have never experienced. A little veteran experience goes along way. Baseball isn't played by a bunch of numbers rather a bunch of human beings.

    Don't discount leadership, because once you do your destined to fail.
    Two great articles on Corky Miller talk about the way players view experience as a great quality to have around.

    http://nky.cincinnati.com/article/AB...T04/304240132/

    http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2...-lifetime-guy-

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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Joey Votto gave Scott Hatteburg a ton of credit for teaching him how to become a professional. You take a 25 year old, throw him onto a major league club that is traveling every 7 days, they are making more money than they ever dreamed of, and have to adapt to a level of failure they have never experienced. A little veteran experience goes along way. Baseball isn't played by a bunch of numbers rather a bunch of human beings.

    Don't discount leadership, because once you do your destined to fail.
    Ask Mike Schmidt about the impact Pete Rose had on his career.

  14. #24
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by bucksfan2 View Post
    Joey Votto gave Scott Hatteburg a ton of credit for teaching him how to become a professional. You take a 25 year old, throw him onto a major league club that is traveling every 7 days, they are making more money than they ever dreamed of, and have to adapt to a level of failure they have never experienced. A little veteran experience goes along way. Baseball isn't played by a bunch of numbers rather a bunch of human beings.

    Don't discount leadership, because once you do your destined to fail.
    Certainly, it matters a little bit. But the Reds have guys who have been around long enough that they already have "veteran" leaders. If Phillips, Votto, Bruce, Choo, Arroyo, Cueto, Broxton, Simon and the likes aren't veteran enough, who is going to be?

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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post
    Ask Mike Schmidt about the impact Pete Rose had on his career.
    Mike Schmidt in the five seasons before Pete showed up hit .264/.379/.521 while averaging 100 walks and 34 home runs per season. Pete showed up in the middle of the "prime years" for Schmidt at 29.

    No doubt that Schmidt got a whole lot better after Pete showed up, but was it because of something Pete showed him (Schmidt made big strides in defense going from outstanding to elite). His walk rates and strikeout rates remained similar to where they had always been. Did Pete teach him how to use his power more?

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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Why do you think experience on the MLB level is different than experience playing College or High School ball? Every night there is 25k+ watching your every move for even the worst of teams. In the playoffs, that number is in the millions. Baseball is a game of failure. Young players won't succeed unless they see that these veterans went through slumps too, or that they bobbled a ball in Game 3 of a division series too. Experienced players have made it through despite their failures and have made themselves better as a result, which is exactly the message ball clubs want to send to their prospects.

  18. #27
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    What I've learned so far from this thread is that Rolen's leadership and experience had nothing to do with the Reds success in 2010 and 2012.

    Carry on.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Certainly, it matters a little bit. But the Reds have guys who have been around long enough that they already have "veteran" leaders. If Phillips, Votto, Bruce, Choo, Arroyo, Cueto, Broxton, Simon and the likes aren't veteran enough, who is going to be?
    Again, let's try and strip away the pre-assumptions about leadership. It's not just having experienced guys hanging around the locker room.

    The Reds need steady hands on the field too, particularly at the bat. Guys who won't press after a couple bad days; guys who have been through team slumps many times and know they will end soon; steady, veteran hitters.

    So Cueto, Broxton, Arroyo, Simon won't do it for the offense. Nor certainly will Jay Bruce who is struggling.

    Phillips, Votto and Choo are good steadying influences on and off the field, but they are apparently not enough. As they say in the commercial, we need more.
    Last edited by Kc61; 05-07-2013 at 04:31 PM.

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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by klw View Post
    I always assumed the personality tests were done so that some folks in middle management and HR could justify their positions.


    Not really offpoint but maybe to the side of the point: why is it when HS coaches talk about their teams they talk about Senior leadership but College coaches speak of inexperienced Freshman? After HS graduation do all the leadership qualities dissolve for the next two or three years?
    Different level different expectations.
    I was in the ORG once, best 6 months of my life.

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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by CySeymour View Post
    I have little doubt Joey Votto would have figured out how to be a professional with or without Scott Hatteburg.
    I have a lot of doubt about that.

    Votto was a lost soul early in his career, and has serious problems dealing with life as a major league player. He had to go on the DL to deal with "personal issues." Rumors about him being mentaly able to handle MLB life were swirling.

    Sure, he's fine now, and seems like a leader himself, but Votto, of all recent Reds players, is the one that I believe needed and benefited most from veteran leadership at the beginning of his career.
    "Man, the pitch looks fast, even in slow motion." Thom Brennaman on Chapman's fastball.


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