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Thread: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

  1. #46
    .377 in 1905 CySeymour's Avatar
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by TOBTTReds View Post
    Although I disagree with the OP, I also disagree with your post here. I think you are being short sited, and you know it, just to prove a point. A full season of games lasts about 486 hours (3 hr/g).

    You and I both know that a baseball season is much more than just those 486 hours of game time. Vets can help with a lot, and effect other players a lot, especially the young ones.

    It can be things from:

    Maturity
    Game prep
    Handling the road trips
    Learning opposing pitchers
    Handling slumps
    Handling success (I think this has helped Bryce Harper)
    Just hearing from what other have experienced and learned and how they learned

    Although crappy vets tick me off like they do you, there is SOME value there. I say it with Dusty, he makes me so mad, probably every game, but he has to be doing something right, because the players like him, and he does win (even though many times it seems they when despite him).

    A little more open mindedness here may help.
    You're right, but you don't need crappy vets for this. Phillips, Izturis, Choo, Arroyo, Broxton, Marshall, Hannigan, Hannahan have all been around and through the wars.
    ...the 2-2 to Woodsen and here it comes...and it is swung on and missed! And Tom Browning has pitched a perfect game! Twenty-seven outs in a row, and he is being mobbed by his teammates, just to the thirdbase side of the mound.

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  4. #47
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    This thread wasn't about adding "crappy vets" or about experienced players who merely pat guys on the back.

    This thread was about experienced players who lend stability and consistency to the lineup. Guys who can still play and who may not be susceptible to the same ups and downs of a first or second year player. At this point, with the injuries, I believe the Reds are short of these among position players.

    What comes through is that some posters believe experienced players are generally guys with diminished skills who simply provide limited help to the "real" players. Nothing could be further from the truth.
    Last edited by Kc61; 05-07-2013 at 11:10 PM.

  5. #48
    No half measures, Walter RedEye's Avatar
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I'm simply saying that good veteran players have a steadying influence and may not be subject to so many ups and downs as inexperienced players.
    Isn't what you are saying also true of good players regardless of their experience? I have nothing against adding more veterans, mind you -- as long as they are also productive on the field according to the numbers. Give me first-half 2010 Scott Rolen, for instance. But not 2010 Orlando Cabrera.

    That said -- there are also relatively inexperienced players who can steady a team. Mike Trout, for instance. Or even Todd Frazier.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

  6. #49
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Isn't what you are saying also true of good players regardless of their experience? I have nothing against adding more veterans, mind you -- as long as they are also productive on the field according to the numbers. Give me first-half 2010 Scott Rolen, for instance. But not 2010 Orlando Cabrera.

    That said -- there are also relatively inexperienced players who can steady a team. Mike Trout, for instance. Or even Todd Frazier.
    There are steady but inexperienced players. A guy like Trout is a great player, obviously you'd want him. (Frazier is hitting .239 and I don't view him as a model of consistency.)

    What I'm saying is that, on balance, the Reds might well avoid the offensive inconsistencies of this season if they had more veteran hitters. I'm saying that the loss of Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan, without veteran replacements, may well be contributing to the inconsistency.

  7. #50
    The Lineups stink. KronoRed's Avatar
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    If Rolen is the answer, I don't know what the question could possibly be.
    I believe the question is "How much worse can we make 3b?"
    Go Gators!

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  9. #51
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    There are steady but inexperienced players. A guy like Trout is a great player, obviously you'd want him. (Frazier is hitting .239 and I don't view him as a model of consistency.)

    What I'm saying is that, on balance, the Reds might well avoid the offensive inconsistencies of this season if they had more veteran hitters. I'm saying that the loss of Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan, without veteran replacements, may well be contributing to the inconsistency.
    Maybe it should just be "good consistent players." I think we often assume that more experience leads to more consistency, but I don't think it is always true -- especially in a game that is so dependent on physical talents that don't age well.
    "Iíll kind of have a foot on the back of my own butt. Thatís just how I do things.Ē -- Bryan Price, 10/22/2013

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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by RedEye View Post
    Maybe it should just be "good consistent players." I think we often assume that more experience leads to more consistency, but I don't think it is always true -- especially in a game that is so dependent on physical talents that don't age well.
    My premise is that much of the Reds' inconsistency this year is due to inexperienced players.

    My other premise is that if they added a couple of veteran hitters it would help bring stability, perhaps avoiding these team slumps. And that the loss of so much experience may well be hurting offensive consistency.

    Yes, experience does not always bring consistency. I agree. There are steady players without much experience. On balance, my premise is that the best way to steady the offense is with guys who have been around the block.

  11. #53
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    For the sake of this thread, let it be noted Ludwick is with the team while they are at home. I assume the same for Hanigan...I think he was with them in Wrigley actually.

  12. #54
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Mike Schmidt in the five seasons before Pete showed up hit .264/.379/.521 while averaging 100 walks and 34 home runs per season. Pete showed up in the middle of the "prime years" for Schmidt at 29.

    No doubt that Schmidt got a whole lot better after Pete showed up, but was it because of something Pete showed him (Schmidt made big strides in defense going from outstanding to elite). His walk rates and strikeout rates remained similar to where they had always been. Did Pete teach him how to use his power more?
    Well, I was just going by what Schmidt himself has said over and over about what a difference Pete made for him and his career, but what the hell does Mike Schmidt know about it? I'm sure you're right. Not as sure as you are, but pretty sure.

  13. #55
    The Boss dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by osuceltic View Post
    Well, I was just going by what Schmidt himself has said over and over about what a difference Pete made for him and his career, but what the hell does Mike Schmidt know about it? I'm sure you're right. Not as sure as you are, but pretty sure.
    Well, Pete either taught a great power hitter to become a greater power hitter despite that Pete couldn't hit for power at all, or Mike Schmidt thought something made a difference and really didn't show up in his stats at all.

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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by reds44 View Post
    Me thinks you will see Rolen before the year is over. Not sure Frazier is the answer.
    If the Reds have to resort to bringing Rolen back (which I personally do not think is going to happen), me thinks the team might be in pretty bad/desperate shape at that point.

    No offense intended towards Scott, but if Frazier with Hannahan backing him up is not the "answer", and it may/may not be, regardless, I sure don't think Rolen is either. Veteran leadership or whatever be damned.

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  16. #57
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    This thread wasn't about adding "crappy vets" or about experienced players who merely pat guys on the back.

    This thread was about experienced players who lend stability and consistency to the lineup. Guys who can still play and who may not be susceptible to the same ups and downs of a first or second year player. At this point, with the injuries, I believe the Reds are short of these among position players.

    What comes through is that some posters believe experienced players are generally guys with diminished skills who simply provide limited help to the "real" players. Nothing could be further from the truth.
    I was listening to McAlister's show on the way home from work, and he played a clip of Votto's interview with ESPN his rookie season after hitting 3 HR's in a game. While trying to do the interview, Adam Dunn was messing with him and Joey was new to all of this while trying to be very respectful and serious, and was upset about his teammates playing around and apologized to the ESPN crew who laughed it off.

    I thought of this thread.

    Look back 5 years and ask yourself, who do you want teaching a young Votto and Bruce how to be a professional.........Dunn or Rolen?

    Again, don't twist this around.........I'm not saying you can't have some fun.........but Dunn was all jokes and not much seriousness about the game. Hence his one way ticket to rarely playing for a winner. Then there's Scott Rolen who has played for winners nearly everywhere he's gone. Coincidence? Hardly.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread

  17. #58
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Well, Pete either taught a great power hitter to become a greater power hitter despite that Pete couldn't hit for power at all, or Mike Schmidt thought something made a difference and really didn't show up in his stats at all.
    Your lack of awareness about the dynamics of sports and a team is stunning and telling.

  18. #59
    RaisorZone Raisor's Avatar
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Reds had the best offense in the nl back in 04 (or was it 05?) I want to make sure I am understanding you here. Are you saying that Dunn being a goofball is why those teams didn't do better? Did Dunn's shenniagans cause the pitching to be so bad?
    "But I do know Joey's sister indirectly (or foster sister) and I have heard stories of Joey being into shopping, designer wear, fancy coffees, and pedicures."

  19. #60
    All work and no play..... Vottomatic's Avatar
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    Re: Rolen, Ludwick, and Hanigan

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Reds had the best offense in the nl back in 04 (or was it 05?) I want to make sure I am understanding you here. Are you saying that Dunn being a goofball is why those teams didn't do better? Did Dunn's shenniagans cause the pitching to be so bad?
    Lots of debate about what my answer is going to be. Lots of Kearns and Adam Dunn fans on this board.

    I have an acquaintance who has worked for the Reds a long time. I don't know him that well, but he's a friend of one of my good friends, and he'll get together with us once in awhile and I get to pick his brain about inside stuff. To avoid getting himself in trouble, which I respect, he's good at being vague and general about current stuff. But once years have gone by, he's more willing to give the scoop on situational things.

    What I've was told about Kearns, Dunn, Felipe Lopez, and others, back in the early 2000's, is that there was a very poor work ethic on the team. A good part of the reason Kearns and Lopez were traded. And eventually Dunn. It was like a disease that poisoned the team. Remember Griffey and Larkin leaving early one year, like the last game, when McKeon was manager? Same crap.

    Castellini's took over, cleaned house, and wanted to change the work ethic from top to bottom, minors to major leagues. After cleaning house in a lot of ways, they brought in veterans who had played on winning teams, to mentor the young guys.

    That's what I've been told. And I believe every word of it.

    Losing can be contagious, like a disease. Winning can be contagious too............but sometimes guys don't know what it takes.
    "I can't take this homerism anymore." - 10xWSChamps, August 11, 2010. A Cardinals fan having a problem with all the homerism on Redszone. Classic.

    "Man do I miss the days where were didn't need a calculator and an encyclopedia of baseball metrics to enjoy a baseball game ... - MikeS21" - 8/2/12 game thread


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